Transcript: Episode 193 – Nature in the Workplace: Creating Healthy, Vibrant Spaces Where People Thrive (with Stephanie Carlson)
April 22, 2024
Show Notes: Episode 194 – How Neurodiversity Impacts Productivity, Culture, and Retention (with Jeff Gibbard and Sarah Ohanesian)
May 6, 2024

Click here for this episode’s show notes.

This transcript was created using an automated transcription service and may contain errors.

Jeff 00:01
We think of it more like a circle where everybody’s kind of on this spectrum of different ways that their brains perceive things. How they respond to different stimuli, how they process patterns, how they, you know, break down and understand time.

JoDee 00:16
Welcome to The JoyPowered® Workspace Podcast, where we help HR and business leaders embrace joy in the workplace. I’m JoDee Curtis, owner of Purple Ink, an HR consulting firm, and with me is my friend and co-host Susan White, owner of Susan Tinder White Consulting, also an HR consulting practice.

JoDee 00:41
Our topic today is neurodiversity – how it impacts productivity, culture, and retention. Neurodiversity in the workplace has gained significant attention in recent years as organizations increasingly recognize the value of diverse perspectives and talents. Neurodiversity encompasses a range of neurological differences, including autism, ADHD, dyslexia, and more. It is estimated that 15 to 20% of the world’s population are neurodiverse.

Susan 01:22

JoDee 01:23
By embracing neurodiversity, workplaces can create a culture that fosters innovation, creativity, and inclusivity. Here are a few examples. Number one is diverse perspectives drive innovation. Neurodivergent individuals often possess unique ways of thinking and problem solving.

Susan 01:48
Number two, enhancing team dynamics. A neurodiverse workforce contributes to the richness of team dynamics.

JoDee 01:55
Number three, creating an inclusive culture. Embracing neurodiversity sends a powerful message about inclusion.

Susan 02:04
Number four, unlocking hidden talent. Neurodivergent individuals bring a wealth of untapped talent to the workplace. Many possess unique skills such as attention to detail, pattern recognition, and deep focus that can be invaluable in various roles.

JoDee 02:20
And number five, building a positive brand image. Companies that champion neurodiversity often find that their commitment resonates positively with clients, customers, and the broader community. Fostering neurodiversity is about creating a culture that values every individual for their unique abilities and perspectives. As we move forward, the continued promotion of neurodiversity in the workplace will undoubtedly lead to stronger, more resilient, and forward-thinking organizations. So why might you encourage neurodiversity in your workplace? Well, number one, to meet the needs of your workforce. By creating a supportive workplace, you’ll help to reduce the stress and stigma that neurodivergent people may experience. Not only can this improve mental health, but it can also drive employee engagement.

Susan 03:25
Secondly, to plug skills gaps. Out in the world today, you know, unemployment runs as high as 80% for neurodivergent people, because they have a difficult time often getting through the interview process, where we’re looking for a certain type of person or a certain kind of response or reactions and that may not be what, you know, the… the interviewer is going to see, and it’s really easy for them to pass on that candidate. We’ve got to help people think more broadly, because when neurodivergent individuals actually land a job, they are going to be in many ways potentially more successful than others.

JoDee 03:59
And number three, to improve team processes. DXC Technology Director Michael Fieldhouse says that neurodivergent hires don’t just fill roles, they “sharpen up some of the thought processes amongst the team members.”

Susan 04:17
Number four, to improve customer service. Customers prefer socially inclusive companies, too, and an organization aware of neurodiversity will communicate better with and offer better customer service often to customers who are both neurotypical and neurodivergent.

JoDee 04:35
And number five is my favorite and that’s to enhance communication. Autistic employees, as an example, may have difficulties with linguistic nuance, irony, and/or colloquialisms. As a result, many organizations have adapted to speak more directly, which can improve communication for everyone. So if we encourage this type of a more inclusiveness of neurodiverse people, how can we better support them once they come to the workplace? Well, there are several simple things that organizations can do to support them, and let’s highlight just a few of them. Number one is to adopt inclusive hiring practices. Susan, you referred to this a little bit earlier. Many employers ask candidates for a broad level of competence in areas such as communication, emotional intelligence, and persuasiveness, but conforming to the standard effectively screens out neurodiverse talent. Autistic people, once again, for an example, might avoid eye contact. They might take conversational tangents or provide overly detailed answers, while someone who’s dyslexic may prefer to present an example of their work rather than do a written assessment.

Susan 06:08
Secondly, they recommend that you take a strength-based approach. Explore the full range of people’s abilities, both existing members of your team and potential new hires, and don’t make assumptions about the abilities of a neurodivergent employee. They will likely have many unique insights and skills to offer that would be overlooked if we don’t talk about it.

JoDee 06:28
And number three, praise good work regularly. Praise can be powerful for all employees in building their competence and self-esteem, but particularly with those who are neurodivergent.

Susan 06:43
And then number four, provide reasonable adjustments. So many are easy to implement at a very low cost, as it is true for really a lot of disabilities. While adjustments will likely vary depending on the person’s specific requirements, some simple things might be allowing people to take extra breaks; reduce sensory stimuli, for example, by having quiet areas in the office or providing noise cancelling headphones; provide clear and logical guides on goals, processes, meeting agendas, and work tasks. Goes back to really clearly communicating, as mentioned. Provide dedicated desks or workspaces. Allow people to work from home and provide that flexibility, perhaps hybrid offices. Provide assistive technology such as speech to text or text to speech software, time management apps, note taking apps, writing assistant apps, etc. Live captioning in virtual meetings can really be useful.

JoDee 07:38
And number five, build awareness and trust. We can champion neurodiversity by building awareness and opening up the conversation about the topic in our organizations. If you’re a team leader, set an example by being a visible part of your organization’s programs on inclusivity and diversity. If you’re neurodivergent yourself, consider sharing your story with your colleagues and inviting others to do the same. Also consider running internal campaigns or training on topics such as diversity and neurodiversity to raise awareness of strengths and challenges faced by neurodivergent colleagues. This can build trust and understanding between colleagues as well as tackle negative assumptions, discrimination, and harmful stereotyping.

Susan 08:36
And then finally, don’t worry if you’re not an expert. The fact is that businesses often team up with social partners, government and nonprofit organizations that help neurodivergent people gain skills and jobs. These types of organizations can help you to navigate employment regulations, source neurodiverse talent, and mentor new employees. One I’ll just put a plug in for. In your location, if there is a Disability:IN chapter – that’s Disability and then capital I capital N – in your part of the world, they can be so helpful. It’s businesses working with partners in their community to try to really bring in people who have special needs or have special abilities. So take a look, Google and see if there’s any in your neck of the woods.

JoDee 09:23
I love it. So by embracing neurodivergence, you can bring extra creativity and different perspectives and expertise to your organization, and the advantages exceed reputational benefits. A Harvard Business Review discovered that organizations with neurodiversity programs enjoy better products, services, and bottom lines from lower defect rates and higher productivity.

JoDee 09:53
So of course, we invited two experts to join our show today. After a decade knowing one another Jeff Gibbard and Sarah Ohanesian co-founded Super Productive, a productivity strategy, consulting, and training company. It was there that they discovered the hidden power of neurodiversity to accomplish extraordinary things. As speakers, Jeff and Sarah share the stage to deliver a unique keynote and workshop series about the invisible power of neurodiversity at work.

Susan 10:33
Welcome, Jeff and Sarah. We’re so glad that you’re here.

Jeff 10:35
Thanks for having us.

Susan 10:36
Yeah, could you give us an overview of the key terms we should know when talking about neurodiversity?

Sarah 10:42
So when we’re talking about neurodiversity, there’s a couple of terms that we think are really, really important for people to just, just be aware of. And we’re actually noticing when we talk to audiences, there’s a lot of sometimes misconception or just misalignment of, like, what do these terms actually mean? And for some people, it might be the first time they’re ever even hearing some of these terms, and that’s okay, too. So we always like to start with, yeah, what, what are some of these terms? So first is, like, what is neurodivergent? What does that mean, to be neurodivergent? And so talking about different brain types, and people who may be experiencing ADHD, autism, OCD, different functions of the brain, that would be labeling them as neurodivergent. So then we also have the term neurotypical. So this is someone whose brain is – and I kind of use quotes here as I say this – “typical” or “normal,” or what is perceived to be a normal brain type. And all that means is, their brain just operates the same way that most brains do. Mathematically, they’re in the category of most other brains work in that way. And then one other really important term that Jeff and I use a lot is neuroinclusion. And so that’s taking these concepts and making sure that we are making sure that our workspaces, our environments, are inclusive of all the different brain types that exist. So Jeff, anything to add there?

Jeff 10:42
Yeah, only thing I would add to it is that when you hear these terms, neurodivergent and neurotypical, it’s very, very common for people to imagine that as a linear spectrum where on one end, you kind of have neurotypical, and on the other end neurodivergent. And it sort of sets up this dichotomy of, like, normal and abnormal, or, you know, sort of better and broken sort of thing. And that’s, that’s not how we think of it. We think of it more like a circle, where everybody’s kind of on this spectrum of different ways that their brains perceive things, how they respond to different stimuli, how they process patterns, how they, you know, break down and understand time. So all these are just different features that kind of exist naturally across the human spectrum. And this idea of neurotypicality is just sort of this mythical idea of a normal or whatever the very, very tippy top of that bell curve is. That’s kind of what is the standards that are kind of passed down that everyone should adhere to. And this neurodivergent idea kind of became people who deviate from that. But really, we’re all just different. It’s different ways of perceiving the world.

JoDee 13:10

Susan 13:11
Makes sense.

JoDee 13:12
And you mentioned different brains work differently. Can you talk a little bit more about that, or maybe even give us some examples?

Jeff 13:21
In our partnership, Sarah and I… so we’re business partners, we do keynote speaking together, we also have a company that we run together, it’s a productivity company and we take a neuroinclusive approach to productivity. And the reason we do that, where that came from, is that I have ADHD and I’m autistic, and Sarah would identify more as neurotypical. So what we came to realize from working together – and we’d known each other for more than a decade – when we came together to work together was that we realized that we just do certain things in different ways and we had to kind of learn how to negotiate that so that we could operate and work well together. So I’ll give you some examples of what that might look like. So for instance, Sarah and I perceive time in very different ways. I have kind of really two different variations of time. There is “now” and “not now.” Everything is either now or not now. Right now, we’re here together. I’m really enjoying talking to you, love being on any podcasts with Sarah, but I am right now here, fully present, fully locked in. Everything that is in the past and everything that is in the future, whether it was a minute ago or whether it was 20 years ago in my past, is all part of “not now” in a big pancake stack. They’re just as close and reachable, but they’re all in that big stack. So because of that, I have difficulty sometimes in terms of how we schedule things that is different from the way that Sarah does. So for instance, I might get lost in a task. What feels to me 10 minutes – four hours. Right? It took four hours but felt like 10 minutes to me. This happens to me at night all the time. I’ll sit down at 8:30, I’ll be like, “Babe, I’ll be right up to bed.” Two o’clock. How did that happen? Well, I said I’ll just do one more thing. Half an hour gone in a blink. Now Sarah, Sarah has a much more accurate perception of time. She can show up to meetings on time, she can generally understand how long it takes to do different things and the space between things. Me, I have, I have a calendar open at all times, I have alarms, I have timers, I have everything external to help me process it, because my ability to process time is – I don’t want to call it broken, it’s different. It just functions on a different, on a different scale. So that’s one example of differences. Sarah, do you have any others that you want to give? Because I have a laundry list of them all, but I’ll give you an opportunity.

Sarah 15:35
Well, I think one of the things that’s been really interesting for us as a, as an organization and how we work together is when we do our keynote, we share this graphic, and it’s this graphic of if I work for eight hours of the day, I’m generally fairly consistent in that work, my output is just a straight line if you were to look at it across the graph, where Jeff could have, you know, a couple hours in the morning where he’s not, you know, not quite into the flow of the work, but then – so his productivity is essentially low, and then he might have this massive spike of, like, hyperfocus, hyperproductivity, like, so much output. And so his graph could be kind of low, and then spike into this really high range. So I think that’s just an interesting thing of, back to, you know, not all hours of the day are graded equally, but also output for some of your team members is really important to consider, because they might have low output, and then big, super high output at different hours. So I think that’s an interesting difference that we’ve really noticed that’s good for organizations to be aware of.

Jeff 16:37
Yeah, one thing I just want to add to that is that that’s not just by day, that’s also by week. So I might have this – and this has happened. I might have two days where I am very low productivity, get almost nothing done, maybe I’m on some Zoom calls, but the space I have between them, I get almost nothing done. And then I will, on, like, a Wednesday or Thursday, I’ll work for, like, a 12-hour day completely locked into the work and I’ll get, you know, three or four gigantic projects done. So the, the expectation that I think managers need to have when dealing with a person is that each person is an individual. If I was held to Sarah’s standards, I would fail miserably. If she was held to my standards, she would fail miserably. Because we process the world differently and are comfortable and successful operating within the ways that we naturally, you know, want to operate.

JoDee 17:24
Yeah, thank you for sharing those.

Jeff 17:27
Yeah, my pleasure.

Susan 17:28
Makes good sense.

Jeff 17:28

Susan 17:29
So, our listeners are HR leaders and business leaders. What kind of advice do you have for them to be more curious about neurodiversity in a work setting?

Sarah 17:38
Okay, I’ll share what happened with Jeff and I. Obviously, we were noticing some differences. And I’ll also be honest, that sometimes those were frustrations and I would be like, “Oh my gosh, like, what is happening here?” And the way that I approached it, and now we really teach our clients to, is “help me understand.” So instead of me saying, “Why didn’t you do that thing, Jeff?” or pointing the finger, causing some shame or guilting him into something, I was very curious on – we’re, we’re not operating in the same way here. Like, what’s going on here? And so this journey of curiosity. I mean, I’m not – this doesn’t happen overnight. This is months and months. Like we said, we, we worked together for years, months and months and months of just being, “How does that feel to you? How does that look to you? How do you receive this information? How is this making you feel?” And we really kind of had to dig deep, but always coming back to that question of “help me understand, I’m noticing something, I don’t want to put fault or blame, but help me understand,” that single phrase is why we are where we are today and why our business is so successful, is because we just really committed to understanding how each other operate.

Sarah 17:39

Jeff 17:56
So that’s one big one. I’ll offer another one. So what Sarah says in the moment very much is, like, “help me understand,” right? Like, she’s very good at that. And I do the same with her because quite honestly, I don’t know how a neurotypical brain works. It’s just not how mine works, so I have to understand it, right? But that can actually only work – and Sarah didn’t say this, but this is the subtext of it. It only worked because I felt safe. Right? So you have to have an environment where people feel safe enough to actually tell you, and it’s challenging with neurodivergence, right? Because as a neurodivergent person who could not hold a job – I am, I am terminally an entrepreneur, I cannot exist in a job – but for those who can, what’s often challenging is, do I, do I actually talk about this? Do I divulge that I am ADHD or autistic or dyslexic or OCD or any of these things? Because it could be the thing that then gets kind of held against me even though you’re not supposed to. It could be a thing where you’re held to a different standard, or maybe, you know, people infantilize you and, like, you know, treat you with kid gloves or whatever, or whatever it might be, and so you don’t feel safe, so you don’t necessarily feel like speaking up, but then when you don’t speak up, you can’t get the accommodations you need. You can’t advocate for the differences and how you might need to work to succeed and thrive. So safety is really paramount there. And I think part of the challenge is, is that I think in a lot of companies, differences are seen as something that is an inconvenience rather than something to potentially be celebrated and embraced. And if that difference is something that can’t be, for lack of a better term, exploited or used for the profitability of the company, it’s seen as something that we can’t really accommodate. We can’t go the extra mile for that when we could find someone who could come in and be less, less of an issue, right? So when you change the what you think, you do, and you say in an organization, think just because it’s different doesn’t mean it’s wrong, you do try to make it safe for people so that you can have those conversations. And you really have to set the stage that someone who’s neurodivergent feels comfortable enough saying, like, “Hi, I’m different in this way.” And thankfully, a lot of the Gen Z are a lot more comfortable being like, “Hi, how’s it going, I’m autistic,” which is great. And then you have to be able to take the position of if I don’t understand something, I have to really be curious so that I can figure out how I can support this person so that they can thrive in this organization. So HR managers, if you’re in that position, it’s not just your job, it’s also about helping the leaders that you work with cultivate those same mindsets.

JoDee 21:12
Once again, beautiful examples. And what are some more ways that companies could plan ahead or work to really make sure they’re including people of all levels and abilities?

Sarah 21:27
You know, in our organization, and what we’re always teaching clients is bringing people into that conversation is really, really helpful. And this goes across the… I don’t – whatever label you, you consider, what’s really important is that we’re having an open conversation about, does this work for you? How does this feel to you? Which we’ve already touched on. I think the key then coming out of that, is that open conversation allows us then to develop processes and systems for, well, how are we going to accommodate for that and how are we going to account for that, good and bad? So one of the things that we’ve done a great job with is we’ve got processes and systems for nearly everything that we do so there’s just less room for margin and error. Jeff mentioned earlier being on time to meetings. I’ll tell you this, Jeff’s never late for meetings, ever. So he brings that up as an example, but he’s someone who’s never late for meetings. And here’s why. There is a process and a system and he lives by the calendar. And that is something that he has taken on that’s very important, because he knows naturally, I’m going to be late for a meeting, so to compensate for that, I’m going to put some systems and tools in place so that doesn’t happen. And I think we can do this at a personal level, but also as organizations. What do we need as a team to make sure that, hey, some of these realities of real life, what can we do to make sure we’re helping each other like, you know, be the, be the – I hate to say the best version of ourselves, but that’s really what this is, is making sure we’ve got systems, tools, processes in place to make sure we can, you know, kind of compensate for some of those things. And then on the other side of it, I would say celebrating those differences is really, really critical. And when we celebrate those differences that makes it safe at work. And when we’re safe at work, we can talk more openly. And it’s this cycle of now everything starting to work a little better, feeling a little bit better, because we’re open, we’re talking about it, and we’re actually really celebrating what each other can do.

Jeff 23:22
I’ll tell you, one of the most impactful things that we do, though, and you don’t need us to do this, though we’re really good at it, but this is something any organization can do. Okay, so we do this exercise called the user guide. So this is something I’ve been doing for a long time with my team, where basically – and this is great also, because you don’t actually have to say “Hi, I’m autistic,” or “Hi, I’m OCD.” Instead, you focus on behaviors, patterns, feelings, right? So what we do is, we come in and we run a workshop where we ask everyone to go through a couple different types of assessments, but also to answer a bunch of different questions about their preferences, and what we discover through doing this, and what I think – whether you’re neurotypical or neurodivergent, what you come to realize in this session when you develop your sort of user manual of, like, how you operate best, your favorite modes of communication, do you work best in the morning or the evening? How do you like to be, you know, given instruction or feedback and all of these things? What’s your rocket fuel? What’s your triggers? When you get all of that stuff and everybody’s sitting there with their unique user guide. what you find out immediately is, everybody is different. Every single person, even though it’s three neurotypical people sitting next to each other, they’re all different. And what’s nice about that is then it doesn’t cause us to pathologize the people who are quote, unquote, “neurodivergent,” right, the people who have a condition that’s been diagnosed and has certain attributes to it, because they just have a different way of doing it. But then again, the two people who are supposedly the same, totally different as well. And one of the examples that we give just to illustrate this difference – right? – of, like, different not being wrong – which is what we say over and over and over, just because something’s different doesn’t make it wrong – is, so my wife is neurotypical and my business partner, Sarah here, neurotypical, and both of them have heard something that I do that I never really thought was very unique or different. And I’m gonna play you a quick little sample of audio for it. But I listened to a lot of audiobooks, and I never thought that this was odd, but here’s how I listen to my audiobooks. [plays clip of audiobook] That’s 3x speed. That’s what I listened to it as. My wife gets in the car, and she’s like, “shut it off, shut it off, shut it off, shut it off, turn it off, turn it off, turn it off.” Is that wrong that I listen to it that way? No. Is it kind of a superpower? Yeah, I crush books. And when we see that some of these things are just different, then we can stop saying different is wrong, we can say different is different. And that leads to what Sarah said, celebrating the differences. You create an environment where you say, this person can do this wonderful thing, like recognize patterns or work at an accelerated rate, but what comes with that is they’re a little bit less reliable on their email. So how can we support that so we can get their gifts by understanding where their weaknesses are? And that’s true for neurotypical people as well. Because if I asked Sarah or my wife to listen to their audiobook that way, they would literally never listen to books.

JoDee 26:02
You know, Jeff, I listen to books at 1.75, and a lot of people, if mine accidentally comes on, or they see that I’m listening so fast, they’re like, “How do you do that?” And so I know how fast 1.75 – occasionally I could do 2, but 3 is really super fast.

Jeff 26:25
If it dips below two, I’m like, “Come on, let’s go. Pick up the pace.” I feel like I’m in traffic.

JoDee 26:31
Yeah, yeah.

Susan 26:33
That’s amazing.

JoDee 26:33
Wow, that is amazing.

Susan 26:35
Wow. So Jeff and Sarah, how could our listeners reach out to you if they’ve got questions about neurodiversity, or maybe about working with you?

Jeff 26:44
So, best place to find us both – and there’s links to both of us personally, but the best place to go is to our website for Super Productive, which is our neuroinclusive productivity company. We set up Asana, Monday, Notion, all those things, and the website is So if you want to get super productive, go to And we have a page on there for a keynote that, that a lot of this stuff that we’ve been talking about, we have a keynote called Brains@Work where we talk about the incredible invisible power of neurodiversity at work. And it’s a tag team keynote, it’s a lot of fun, we have a virtual version that’s different from the stage version, and it’s just a lot of fun. And there’s a page on there for that as well.

JoDee 27:23
Nice, I love it. What is one small step for each of you that people can do in this area to create more joy at work?

Jeff 27:33
It’s a lot of what we’ve been saying, but I can tell you, where I’ve felt the most joy at work is when I’ve finally felt like it’s okay for me to be me, like, fully, fully me. And our results speak for themselves that when we started working together and… you know, I’ve never had more success in my career than when I’ve been working with Sarah, and that’s because she makes it safe for me to be my entire messy self. The executive dysfunction days, the not great with my email response, the scheduling, you know, challenges that, you know, she has to navi… all the things that she does to make it safe for me to be able to operate the way I do allow me to go off and then do the things that really kind of only I can do in our organization. And I try to do the same for Sarah. I try not to make her do all the things that I can do really well. I allow her to just do the things that she likes to do, that she wants to do, and I try to free her up from the different things that I think bring her stress and just let her lean into the work that brings her joy. So it’s almost like the Marie Kondo thing, like, pick up the work, if it doesn’t give you joy, like, discard it. But what you’re really trying to do is be the person that allows the – your colleagues to pick up work and say, “that doesn’t bring me joy,” and discard it. So you really have to question, like, what are, what are those limits that are hard limits? What can we rethink to see if we can accommodate this person to – so that they can thrive in their best way?

Susan 29:03
Yeah. Love it.

Sarah 29:05
That sounds like a mic drop moment, Jeff, that was really good. I will add that one of the things that we have been blessed to be able to receive is people saying to us, I’m identifying with Jeff, or Sarah, or somewhere in the middle, and what you’re saying is resonating with me. And I feel like when we talk, when we meet with clients, that moment of “I feel seen and heard, and you gave me permission,” I mean, that’s, like, the most joy that we, we can have. I mean, that’s just so tremendous to be able to allow someone to feel like they can, they can speak up, they have a voice and at least Jeff and I are hearing them and seeing them and that’s really, really powerful. So that brings us immense joy.

Jeff 29:51
Yeah, and let me just add the one final thing on that that Sarah just made me think of. If I can say it in a very short sentence, validate people, don’t judge them. You can switch from, from judging something that’s different to instead validating it, trying to understand it and then just, you don’t have to agree with it, you don’t have to do it, but to at least make other people feel valid for the way that they are naturally feeling or what they are experiencing. That is a gift that you can give to people. And you don’t have to just do it at work, like, do it everywhere. If you have a partner, if you have kids, like, validate people instead of judging them. World would be a lot better place.

JoDee 30:26

Susan 30:27
I wanna drop the mic now. JoDee, let’s just drop the mic. I’m so inspired.

JoDee 30:34
I am too. And I feel like I’ve learned so much today, too, so thank you so much for joining us and sharing your thoughts and learnings with our listeners.

Jeff 30:48
Thank you so much. Thanks for having us.

Susan 30:51
JoDee, we’ve got a listener question, and this question comes from a listener from one of our April 2023 podcasts. Please remember, we welcome questions from any of our listeners. So here it is. What are some HR resources that you recommend?

JoDee 31:06
Yeah, well, as many of you know, we frequently mention SHRM, so I think you can go to if you’re not familiar with SHRM and learn about them, but you can be a national member, they have national conferences on a variety of different topics, they have knowledge advisors, podcasts, and they also have local chapters or state chapters that run conferences in different states as well. Of course, our favorite resource is in fact, this podcast. So if you haven’t already, subscribe to this podcast so they’ll automatically come to you. And by the way, Susan and I actually learn a lot ourselves when we put these podcasts together, so it’s not that we know all of this information off the top of our head either. Some of my favorite podcasts are Patrick Lencioni, he actually has three different ones, At the Table, Working Genius, and now he just started a new Daily Reflection. You can check out the PeopleForward Network podcasts, they have a whole host of different podcasts related to the HR and business leadership space. And then I’m also just a huge proponent of reading different types of business books, even if they’re not specific to HR. Susan, are there any other resources that you use or used to use, maybe?

Susan 32:50
Sure, yes, I, I’m a, I really enjoy, so I follow HRMorning. They always have very short, quick kind of blurbs that are very topical happening in the world of HR. I follow, Sharlyn Lauby actually is a facilitator for SHRM just as – teaches courses like JoDee and I do, and she also hosts HR Bartender, and it – she’s really got great blogs and articles come out, so I do enjoy reading those. And then the last one I’ll just mention is I really believe in checking out your local library. Libraries bring in different business authors, as well as fictional authors, and so on and so forth. I’ve got a – I’ve just signed up to listen to – Kim Scott, who wrote “Radical Candor,” is going to be a guest author at a library down in Mississippi in February, and this library doesn’t limit people who can come to people who are card holders, so I’m very thrilled about it and I’ve already got my seat on the virtual – around the virtual table to hear her, so check out your library and see if they aren’t bringing business authors or – I like to listen to people more than I like to read, so it’s been a it’s a nice fit for me.

JoDee 34:01
Yeah, lots of different ways to, to learn the way you learn best. Next for in the news. Language learning company Preply surveyed Americans in January 2024 to see what quitting looks like nationwide and how well – or not so well – employees are handling it. There’s a few, we’ll go back and forth here, Susan.

Susan 34:28

JoDee 34:28
Over one in 10 managers report being unjustifiably yelled at by an employee about their experience.

Susan 34:39
Ouch. A whopping 72% of managers admit that exit interviews are more about the formality of getting it done than receiving actual feedback.

JoDee 34:50
That’s a bummer. What a lost opportunity. Over one in 10 Americans have written emotionally charged reviews of former employers on platforms like Glassdoor or other places online. I know we’ve all – most all of us have seen some of those.

Susan 35:09
Yeah. And then one in eight employees have admitted to timing their resignations to cause maximum disruption to their employer. Oh, that makes me sad.

JoDee 35:19
Yeah. Yes, that is too bad. Well, sorry to end on a bit of a sad note there, but thanks for listening today, and make it a JoyPowered® day.

Susan 35:31
Thank you. If you would like SHRM recertification credit for listening to this podcast, please visit You’ll find an evaluation of the podcast and once you complete the evaluation, you will see the SHRM recertification credit code and a link to a proof of participation certificate. Again, that’s Thank you for listening, and thanks for your dedication to the HR profession.

JoDee 36:00
If you liked the show, please tell a few friends about us and let us know what you thought by leaving us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts. You can find more information on our podcast, our books, our blogs, and more at We’re @JoyPowered on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Facebook and you can send us an email at Make it a JoyPowered® day.

Emily Miller
Emily Miller
Emily works behind the scenes at JoyPowered, helping to edit and publish the books, producing the podcast, and running the website and social media.

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