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Susan 00:01
I know many, many people who were really good at what they did — maybe they were the best business development person, the best HR expert on compliance, the best whatever — and they got promoted into a role that I’m not always sure they wanted.

Susan 00:15
Welcome to the JoyPowered® Workspace Podcast, where we help HR and business leaders embrace joy in the workplace. I’m Susan White, owner of Susan Tinder White Consulting. With me is my dear friend and co-host, JoDee Curtis, owner of Purple Ink, a large scale HR firm that I’m part of as an executive collaborator.

Susan 00:38
HR Dive published a column of happy hour on January 30, 2024 by Ginger Christ that focused on bad bosses. JoDee, when I saw that title, I had to read the article. They cited research done by Ken and Debra Corey for a book that they were writing entitled “Bad Bosses Ruin Lives: The Building Blocks for Being a Great Boss.” In the Coreys’ survey of 703 people, they found that 99.6% reported that they had had a bad boss at some time in their careers. Yikes!

JoDee 01:19
99.6?

Susan 01:19
It’s like there’s one person out there who has not had a bad boss, right?

JoDee 01:24
Right.

Susan 01:25
At first blush, I really thought that was astounding, but as I think more about it, it’s probably a fair percentage, because I can think of a bad boss, at least one I’ve had. I bet you can too.

JoDee 01:36
Yes, yes.

Susan 01:37
So Christ suggested that while only 5% of bosses may actually be evil, there may be 95% of them who don’t realize that they are doing things that are causing their staff to think of them as a bad boss. I truly have had probably one or two, I would, what I would call bad bosses, neither of which I would call evil, but just not good bosses in all the decades that I have been working. And I have to believe… and I, I’ve thought about this a lot since I was getting ready for this particular episode, there’s times that I’ve been a bad boss, and it would not surprise me if you were to interview all the people that have been on my teams over the years that — I hope it wouldn’t be 99.6%, but there would be a percentage that would say “Susan: bad boss.” I like to think that my intentions were usually always good, but my execution definitely was not. When I was in my early 20s and in charge of my first teams, I really do shudder to think about the types of things that I did, the way I did, the words I used, the tone I probably used. I think I had a lot of on-the-job training, and unfortunately, there was probably staff members that was the collateral damage. So today we’re going to talk about this, because it’s a topic that I want to keep learning about, because I want to make sure that I’m not a bad boss. JoDee, what about you?

JoDee 03:07
Yeah, when I, you know, I, when I think back over my career, I — It’s difficult for me to say this person was a bad boss, but I did work for people who did do things that were not appropriate or did not make for good bosses, you know. So I think overall, I think they were good people. But were they always a good boss? No. I think a lot of times they had good intentions and certainly didn’t realize the impact they were having on other people. And I would say the same thing about me, too, now that I know so much more about personality styles and CliftonStrengths® and just the way people work, I, you know, I think back early in my career on how people just had very different styles than I did, and I didn’t appreciate those, or I didn’t understand why they didn’t work the same way I did. And so I know there were times and moments and words and actions that I’m sure others didn’t always appreciate, either. So.

Susan 04:26
Yeah, I think now, you know, they always say the Monday, Monday morning quarterback, you know, gets everything right. Looking back, there’s words, I wish I’d used different words, I wish I had done things quicker or done things slower. Who knows? But we can’t, you know, we can’t go back, but we absolutely can keep learning and going forward. Right? So indeed.com posted an article by Lotus Buckner on August 15, 2024 entitled “8 Types of Bad Bosses,” and I thought, for our listeners benefit, we should go through each of these and just see if maybe any of them resonate with us and certainly listeners, I hope that some of these resonate with you. So why don’t you start us off, JoDee?

JoDee 05:06
Yes, so the first one is a boss who is unfriendly. And when I saw that, just one boss I used to work for comes to mind so quickly, that I thought for the longest time she was so unfriendly, but I began to realize she was super focused. Like, she would walk down the hall right next to me and not smile, not say hello, not say hi, but then later in the day, I might be talking to her one on one and I would love her, but I so — I came to appreciate that she was very focused or very thinking about things, but I sure did think she was awful unfriendly.

Susan 05:51
You know, I wonder if she wasn’t a morning person, maybe she didn’t really, like, you know, get her personality until mid-afternoon.

JoDee 05:56
That could be part of it also.

Susan 05:58
That’s interesting. So the second type of unfriendly boss that Buckner cites is a boss who has poor leadership skills. Now I — this resonates with me, because I know many, many people who were really good at what they did — maybe they were the best business development person, the best HR expert on compliance, the best whatever — and they got promoted into a role that I’m not always sure they wanted, but they, that they were the best at something, and so leadership said we gotta put that person in charge. They didn’t have any leadership training. They didn’t certainly have the kind of empathy, empathetic types of skills they ought to have had. Even myself, I, I knew in the organization I worked, in order to advance, you needed to manage a team of people. Individual contributors could only get so far. So although I think I always would have preferred staying an individual contributor, I took on teams, I managed teams, and then even larger teams, then multi-layered teams, and it was because I wanted to advance. I don’t think I had that natural leadership skill.

JoDee 07:02
Number three is a boss who works alone. Similar to the example you were just talking about, I’ve worked, you know, I worked in the accounting field for 21 years, and not, I don’t like to stereotype accountants, but, you know, it is somewhat of a stereotype that accountants are more introverted, and I worked with a lot of people who were very strong technically, wanted to do their thing and didn’t want to coach and didn’t want to mentor. They just wanted to do their thing and go home at the end of the day, and that — we need people with strong technical skills, too. You have a boss, or when you are a boss, we need them to communicate with others.

Susan 07:57
Absolutely. Yeah, that is not a solo job. Yeah, when you’re a boss, you’ve got to be collaborative. Number four on his list is a boss who micromanages other employees. Interestingly, I just was reading an article about how micromanagement is, like, the number one culture killer. People don’t want to have a boss that is breathing down their neck that wants to, wants to go deep in the weeds, because employees don’t feel like they’re trusted when there’s a boss who is watching every move they make, asking is something ready, is it ready, is it ready before a due date. Those types of micromanaging techniques I really do think kills cultures and makes you probably earn that title bad boss.

JoDee 08:39
Number five is a boss who is disrespectful, and I’ve seen this in others. It’s even things like just being disrespectful of other people’s time, right? A big one for me when I’ve seen people who, you know, will give an assignment at 5:00 and wonder why it doesn’t get done, or not, not allow people to prioritize their work, or they, they want something done right away. I also, I had a boss once who just expected everyone to go to lunch with him if he was in the office and wanted to go, but yet he might not go until 1:00 or 1:30 and people would sit around and wait to see if they got invited to go to lunch or not.

Susan 09:36
I would be hangry. By 1:00, I’m hangry.

JoDee 09:39
I missed a lot of lunches, I can tell you, because I was going at 11:30. I was back from lunch by the time he wanted to go.

Susan 09:49
Oh, that’s funny. Number six on the list is a boss who is too demanding. Now, I do believe having high expectations, I think that’s fair, but to demand — you know, telling all the time and not selling, not asking, not inviting, can absolutely make somebody a bad boss.

JoDee 10:09
And the next one is a boss who is unhelpful, right? Maybe not giving clear instructions, maybe not allowing enough time to get things done, maybe not teaching or helping someone learn a new skill or delegate appropriately, too.

Susan 10:29
Yeah, very fair. The last one on Buckner’s list is a boss who shows hostility. Now I’ve been blessed. I’ve never been around a boss that I felt was hostile, but I know I’ve talked to many people who have bosses who they feel really came in with anger, would get hot, they would take out frustrations, their stress, their anxiety on employees. You know, clearly, it could be a very, very dangerous environment for an individual to be in, if not physically, at least emotionally. So definitely, although we left that one for last, I think that’s probably the winner of the worst kind of bad boss you can be.

JoDee 11:09
Right. I agree.

Susan 11:11
Terrible. So JoDee, do you have a bad boss story? And okay, if you don’t, because you’re the kind of person who brings positivity to every situation, but have you seen anybody else, perhaps any of your clients have a bad boss situation, and maybe any advice you gave them to kind of work their way through it?

JoDee 11:29
Yeah, I would say I’m thinking of two people who were my boss, and I didn’t think they were such a bad boss to me personally, but just a bad boss, and they were both leaders and owners of the…

Susan 11:48
Oh dear.

JoDee 11:49
…organizations I worked for, and who I felt were very disrespectful of other people’s time, who didn’t communicate expectations well, who could be very demanding of other people, and I felt like I was someone who liked to communicate a lot and liked to ask for those expectations, and so I think that’s why I maybe got along with them okay, but it was very difficult for me to observe and watch the other people and how they were treating them disrespectfully, and I, I did share that with both of them. I’m sure I didn’t use the word disrespectful. But I left both organizations in less than a year because it just was not a culture I wanted to be a part of. So.

Susan 12:54
Oh man, I’m sorry you went through that. I’m glad that you were, you know, able to recognize it and speak up and leave when you needed to, and sometimes that’s what we have to do when we have a bad boss. I mean, try to work your way through it, but you can’t always. So I was trying to reflect on maybe the worst bad boss experience I had, and this — the example that came first to mind is not that bad, but for me, it just told me that this person didn’t trust me, and I never could get past it. So the example I wanted to share is there was a boss’s boss who was just, let’s call him Gary — which actually was his real name, so Gary, if you’re listening, this one’s for you. I was on a flexible schedule in the early days where there’s very, there was very few flexible schedules. I had just had my second baby, and I was really fighting with trying to, you know, work full time, not work full time, do whatever. So they were going to let me work 7:00 to 3:30, and that was unusual, because virtually everybody else worked 8:15 to 4:45, so I was going to be in an hour and 15 minutes before anyone else, and I was going home an hour and 15 minutes before anybody else. And so I could tell my boss was supportive, colleagues were supportive, but my boss’s boss, very old school, not very supportive of it. His wife stayed home. It was just going to be — he just didn’t think it was going to work. So soon after I started doing this, I, at 8:30 in fact, I got called into my boss’s office, and in there was sitting Gary, his boss, and Gary started in on me about the fact that he’d been calling me, calling my office from 7:00 until 7:45 before he finally had to get in the car and come to work, and I never answered, and I wasn’t there, I didn’t know what I was pulling…. I mean, I was — and my boss was just turning white. He was like, first of all, feeling terrible for me, and yet thinking, “Susan, how could you have done that?” And I mean, I couldn’t get a word in edgewise, because Gary was going on and on. So finally he, he gets quiet, and my boss says, “Susan, can you explain?” I said, “I’ve been here since 7 am this morning. My phone has not rung. What number were you calling?” And he whips out his little directory of everybody on the team, and he, he shouts out this number he had dialed, which had been my old number. They had moved me to a new office when I moved to this job. He was dialing an old number. Anyway, the guy gets up and says, “I must have made a mistake,” and walks out of the room. My boss and I are just looking at each other, and he goes, “Gosh, sorry you went through that,” I said, “So am I.” But I never trusted that guy again. Wasn’t that horrible? Horrible. But now — there’s many worse things. Listeners, we’d love to hear from you. If you’ve got a bad boss story, feel free, we’d love to hear from it. If there’s anything we do to help you on it, we’d love to brainstorm ideas.

JoDee 15:48
I do think, though, I’m surprised that didn’t make the list of — I would say the experience I had with the two people I mentioned really came down to a lack of trust on my part. I didn’t trust them. I didn’t trust them to interact positively with other people or to know what might come out of their mouth. And I just think trust is so important.

Susan 16:14
It is so important to having — to ever, ever having a good relationship, and ever having what you would call a good boss. I agree. Well, according to Buckner, bad bosses — being a bad boss can really impact your legacy at your organization. First of all, you’re probably going to have lower employee morale, higher turnover because like you, you’re not going to stay around with those kind of owners, less productivity because people are walking on eggshells often and they’re not giving their best self because of you being a bad boss. Number four, there’s a greater risk of legal liability, especially if you’re that boss that’s bringing hostility into the workplace, people are going to feel unsafe. And then finally, being a bad boss can cause a really bad — your company image, your employment brand will suffer, and your ability to attract talent is going to be harmed, right? So listeners who are suffering under a bad boss, Buckner suggests take notes, collect evidence. If you need to talk with your fellow employees, contact the HR department, perhaps they can be your advocate and/or approach your supervisor directly. Maybe your boss doesn’t understand what you’re, what you’re perceiving about them. Maybe they don’t understand the impact of the words they’re using, the tone, their technique. I know this doesn’t work for everyone. Some of you listeners are going to say, “I’ve tried that and it blew back on me,” so you have to really judge the situation. Any other advice you might have, JoDee?

JoDee 17:47
Well, I just don’t think — and I know not all of our examples were about a hostile work environment, for sure, but you know, we, you know, I feel so strongly about the importance of working in JoyPowered® environments and JoyPowered® workplace cultures, and I don’t think people should put up with that. And if you can have those conversations with, whether it’s with them or with someone else, but don’t, don’t hang around, right? Vote with your feet.

Susan 18:22
I get it. There — I’m hoping that you, none of you feel you’re being held hostage with the place you are. Some people do feel they have golden handcuffs that the… whatever they’re receiving on the reward side, whatever the benefit of it is outweighs this bad boss. If so, I would still be thinking about an exit strategy.

JoDee 18:39
Yeah.

Susan 18:40
Simultaneously. Well, for listeners who are bosses today, or hope to be bosses someday, or maybe you’re an HR professional that you’re coaching the bosses in your organization, I really do encourage you to read Ken and Debra Corey’s book. The authors, I think, give some really good advice on utilizing 14 building blocks to create great bosses. And so they have divided these up into blocks. And I kind of like it. Their foundation blocks are respect; authenticity; empathy, which we know is the number one key to employee engagement; trust, as JoDee just talked about more; vulnerability; and compassion. I love that. Those — that’s the core ones, and then they have connecting blocks, JoDee.

JoDee 19:24
The connecting blocks are empowerment; development; feedback, so important, feedback on both sides; listening; inspiration; coaching; appreciation, you know, appreciation can be just telling people thank you, right; and communication. Right? Which are all so critical, as well.

Susan 19:52
I do love that. Well, thank you for listening on this particular topic. We’ve got more we’re going to talk about today, but usually on the JoyPowered® Workspace, we like to talk about things that really can help sustain positivity in the workplace, and when we talk about bad bosses, we really are looking at something that can suck all the joy out of a workspace. So yeah, my two cents is, I hope that those of you that are listening, maybe this gives you some confidence that you’re not alone, that there are 90 — what is it? — 99.6% of employees say that at some point in the past you’ve had a bad boss. So if you’re going through a bad boss period, know that you’re not alone, and that hopefully you’ll get through it, whether you have to go to somebody else for assistance, sit down with them directly, or vote with your feet. So good luck there.

JoDee 20:47
Susan, we have a listener question today, and the question is, “Our HR and legal departments tend to approach employee complaints as self-motivated, such as a complaint filed by someone the company is seeking to terminate in order to prevent the termination, or a complaint filed in retaliation for a perceived slight. It seems like the company should be approaching these complaints with an open mind. How would this type of investigation be perceived from a legal perspective?”

Susan 21:25
Well, thanks for the question. First of all, and I do need to just remind everyone that neither JoDee nor I are attorneys, so we really — us telling you what a legal perspective is would probably be off-base. I’ll tell you from a HR perspective, I have done a lot of investigations in my career, and I really do think that your HR department and legal department might want to rethink their mindsets before conducting an internal investigation or just even weighing in on them. I think that it is important to think with a critical mind. You want to evaluate facts, but an employee investigation, you’ve got to come at it with objectivity, with a curious mind, and it has to be an open mind. I think if you’re thinking that someone’s always trying to get up, get something on over you, or to get away with something, then you come at it with a filter that I don’t think is going to be healthy for you doing a robust and thorough and fair investigation. So maybe you can get them to listen to this podcast, because I really do think that they’ve got to bring more objectivity to it, and the fact that they’re behind closed doors talking to you that they’ve already figured out this person’s doing it because of x, y, z, reason, I think that you have every right and responsibility to call them out on it and talk about the objectivity. You certainly could have somebody who files a complaint for nefarious reasons, for something that they want, but you, if you do a good, thorough, robust investigation, you should be able to get to that. You should be able to figure out based on the data you’ve looked at, the materials that you have, that you can’t substantiate the allegations, and then you tend to look at what motivated this complaint. So at that point, then you can make some real, true decisions that are right for the organization.

JoDee 23:14
Totally agree.

Susan 23:17
JoDee, it’s time for in the news. SHRM published its Q4 2024 Civility Index in December of 2024. SHRM launched the Civility Index at the beginning of 2024 to keep a pulse on workplace climates in the United States. And so I thought it was interesting, I don’t know if you went through the facts yet, but some of our listeners may, as well. But some of their findings that I thought was worth sharing include, first of all, there was a 30% increase in the daily acts of incivility experienced by workers in their daily lives from the beginning of 2024 through the end.

JoDee 23:56
Ouch.

Susan 23:57
I know.

JoDee 23:59
Awful. The top contributor to incivility in everyday life and in the workplace that was cited was politics. Of course, 2024 was a presidential election year here in the United States, with lots of downstream contentious campaigns. Susan and I are politically polar opposites, but we still love each other, and…

Susan 24:28
It’s very true.

JoDee 24:29
…we know not to broach this topic. So keep it out of the workspace.

Susan 24:36
Exactly. You’ll never hear us talking politics. That won’t be the title of any of our future episodes, I am sure. Another finding, 60% of US workers believe it is important or very important for their company to make efforts to address civil discourse at work in 2025. Our employees want us to take a stand.

JoDee 24:59
Right. Right. And 26% of US workers said they likely will leave their job in 2025 because of incivility.

Susan 25:12
It really begs the question, I think, for all of us, whether we’re HR leaders or business leaders, you know, what can we do about incivility in our workplaces? Well, the good news is, I think SHRM has created a Political Conversations Playbook and other resources that our listeners might be interested in. We’re going to put a link in our show notes so that you can take a better look at this, at not only the SHRM civility index, but also the supporting resources that they’ve created. I really think it’s worth you considering implementing some type of civility work in your places of employment.

JoDee 25:47
Yeah, I agree. And I took a look at this playbook as well, and it’s solid. There are some great ideas and different things organizations can do that are not difficult. So.

JoDee 26:04
Well, please turn tune in next time and make it a JoyPowered® day.

Susan 26:09
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