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Kathy 00:02
There’s a lot of studies out there that really people just want to be heard. They want it to be known that their contributions are mattering. So one of the first things I ask leaders to do is actually find out how your team wants to be celebrated.

JoDee 00:20
Welcome to The JoyPowered® Workspace Podcast, where we help HR and business leaders embrace joy in the workplace. I’m JoDee Curtis, owner of Purple Ink, an HR consulting and talent development firm, and with me is my dear friend and co-host, Susan White, owner of Susan Tinder White Consulting, also an HR consulting practice.

JoDee 00:49
Our topic today is joy in loyalty. Susan, just in the past few days, a client asked me about loyalty. She was frustrated because she felt that her current and previous team members had or have no loyalty to the — her current organization or where she worked previous to that. And I told her that I thought for many years the baby boomer generation, of which I’m a proud member, but right on the cusp — was that, that the baby boomer generation was probably too loyal. I know my dad worked at the same place for most, if not all of his career, which was typical in that… he was a traditionalist generation. My dad started as a teller at our local bank and retired as the president 45 years later. How about yours, Susan?

Susan 01:54
First of all, I’m in awe of your dad. I mean, that is amazing. Teller to CEO, very impressive. My dad would have been the greatest generation, which I guess — is that the traditionalist as well? Okay, he was in private law practice his whole life, except he took some time off to be a Marion County prosecutor, so a public servant, but primarily he was self-employed, which for my dad, that was important, because I don’t think anybody could have been his boss. He was that kind of a style. For me, exactly opposite I, as a baby boomer, I stayed at the company I started at in college for 35 years, and yeah, so I really was, I was that, and I probably was too loyal, to be honest with you. Since I left that organization, I say to people, you owe your employer today, you owe them the very best A game you bring you can bring every single day, but I don’t think that you owe them 35 years. So I think there’s a balance, and I’m glad we’re talking about this today.

JoDee 02:55
Yeah. Well, and I do think that many baby boomers were not finding joy in their work, but they felt they had to be loyal, or they weren’t sure what else to do, or they didn’t want to look for something else, right? It was just part of that generation. We saw it from our parents, and it, you know, spilled over for us too. When I wrote my first book, “JoyPowered®,” I was overwhelmed by the number of people in that circumstance. Of course, that’s why I think it is so important to find joy in your work. And I think the younger generations are smarter than us. Life, balance, and other activities take a different priority in their lives. And I think that younger generations seem to have more confidence as well. They are more confident in finding a new role, even quitting a role without a new job. That was a horror to baby boomers, right?

Susan 03:59
Yes, it was.

JoDee 04:01
And knowing that if they don’t find joy in their work, then it’s not the right work for them.

Susan 04:08
I do admire that. I really do. I, I honestly, 35 years in at the same company, I didn’t think I knew how to do anything else. I knew I had, I knew I was good as a corporate dweeb somewhere in, you know, the hierarchy of things, but I didn’t know that you can go out and do other things. So I love that that is not the mindset of most people today.

JoDee 04:27
Right, right. In a 2023 article in Forbes by Bruce Tulgan, he, he even named his article “Employee Loyalty Is Not Dead, It’s Just Changing,” and he notes, as we all know, that the world, business, and organizations are changing so rapidly, and the youngest generations have only ever known change, so they are more comfortable dealing with it and making change for themselves. He says they are less likely to make short-term sacrifices in exchange for promises of long-term rewards. They think I wonder where I’ll fit in to your complex picture, rather than look at an employer and think I wonder where you will fit in my life story. When this is working, they can be very loyal, but only for as long as it works for them. I think, though, that this approach has now shifted through all generations. It’s not just the younger generations. Now, as our workforce population decreases, employees have more power in the job market, so they can ask for more and even demand more. And if leaders want to have more loyalty, they will have to create more than transactional relationships with their employees and understand what they are looking for and why. And yes, I know this takes more time, but I suspect less than dealing with constant turnover.

Susan 06:13
Yes, I think that you have really hit the topic spot on. I do believe that in the world today, employees have much more agency. They don’t have to stay and endure bad conditions or lack of recognition, or any of the things that we know drive turnover. They — because there’s other options. At least in my lifetime as a baby boomer, the job market has never been consistently as attractive for employees as it has been over the last, gosh, before the pandemic, so I’ll say, you know, eight, nine, 10 years, ever since the Great Recession, and we finally, the, the United States kind of got on the right track. It has been… The war on talent has been won by the talent, right? That we really have so many more options. And I think that is what has caused, I think, employers to stop and recognize we’ve got to rethink this relationship with employees. We’ve got, if we want loyalty, we gotta make, make ourselves worthy of it. So these are, I think, really positive changes. I hope they’re sustainable. When economies turn and bad times do roll around again, I hope that we don’t revert to not really valuing our employees and making it the workplace a place that deserves people to be loyal to it.

JoDee 07:34
Right, right. I agree. So I invited someone to join us who has a lot of expertise on this topic, Kathy Parry is a trainer, author, and speaker, and like me, holds the designation of a Certified Professional Speaker from the National Speakers Association. She speaks at events nationwide. Kathy has authored six books and is the creator of Power Up and Perform, a course for senior living professionals. She lives in Ohio, where she enjoys a mild dark chocolate addiction. Sounds good to me.

Susan 08:20
Kathy, welcome. We are so glad that you’re here.

Kathy 08:23
Thank you.

Susan 08:25
So Kathy, it’s not your most recent book, but I know you have a book called “Joy Jolt.” Our JoyPowered® podcast loves to talk about joy. How would you describe the difference between joy and happiness?

Kathy 08:37
That’s a great question, and it leads to a lot of confusion for people, because they think, oh, I should be joyful, but I’m not. But the way I define it is, happiness is based on outside circumstances. So you know, when I speak, I say, “What makes you happy?” and people are like, “my grandchildren.” Number one answer when I throw that question out, “my grandchildren.” Shopping, chocolate, it’s things, it’s stuff, it’s circumstances. That’s happiness. But joy is, the way I define it kind of goes beyond happiness. It transcends it. So if we can remove the circumstances around us, the joy is always there, we just have to dig away. And that comes a lot from my background and what I did, I raised a child with severe disabilities, and I kind of had to get through what does this mean? I’m not happy, but there’s joy in that. So that’s kind of what I feel, is the difference between joy and happiness, circumstances versus a feeling that you can tap into at any time.

JoDee 09:43
Love that. And Kathy, what are some of the best ways to acknowledge and celebrate your team in the in the workforce?

Kathy 09:54
Well, I am a big proponent of celebrating and acknowledging because these are the small gestures that keep and retain people. There’s a lot of studies out there that really people just want to be heard. They want it to be known that their contributions are mattering. So one of the first things I ask leaders to do is actually find out how your team wants to be celebrated. You know, do they like food? Do they like an acknowledgement on a web page? Do they want to be acknowledged in a team meeting? So really, just going through a list, but the very basic of sticking a sticky note on someone’s computer to say, “I saw what you did yesterday. Thank you.” So just thanking people often. There’s a whole host of ways that we can celebrate and acknowledge, but we need to know that it’s happening with a regular basis, that everyone’s involved and they understand what’s being celebrated. So if it’s a goal, they can reach that goal, there’s a celebration. They don’t feel left out if somebody else is being celebrated. I work with a lot of senior living teams, and they say sales, sales always gets celebrated because they are easy to measure. It’s easy to measure sales. So make sure everyone’s involved.

JoDee 11:13
Yeah, I think that’s so true. And I see companies spend a lot of money on celebrations or acknowledgements that are not what the people are looking for, right? When it can be those powerful things like saying thank you or writing a handwritten note that are so simple.

Kathy 11:37
Absolutely. Yeah, finishing someone’s work, you know, just saying, “Hey, I see you’re overwhelmed today. Why don’t you leave 15 minutes early? Let me finish that up.” I mean, any leader can do that, and it just it shows that you’ve noticed how hard they’re working.

Susan 11:52
I love the acknowledging, and I love the saying thank you and go home early. Just all those things. I just love it. Kathy, can you tell us a little bit about how when you do these kind of actions, you can actually build loyalty that actually can lead to increased retention?

Kathy 12:09
When I talk about joy in the workplace, I say it’s built on three concepts, which are purpose — building purpose into your culture, helping everyone understand that they have a purpose — loyalty, and gratitude, and when I get, dig deep into loyalty, we talk about trust. How do you build trust? How do you make sure that communication is happening so that people don’t feel isolated, so that people feel that they have the information they need, because gossip in the workplace ruins that trust, and therefore people won’t stay loyal if they’re feeling like they don’t have the information. So really working through with teams on how do you make sure the information is getting out there, that you are consistent, and that everyone knows what’s going on without oversharing. You know, sometimes we can’t tell everything that’s happening, but making sure individuals understand they’re heard. I think that’s the best way to build loyalty, and it’s through that trust factor.

JoDee 13:16
And something that people talk about a lot, but don’t necessarily do, right? I think, like, we all want to be trusted, or we want to say, “my people trust me,” but yet, maybe we’re not always intentionally looking for ways to build that.

Kathy 13:35
Studies show that, like, over 50% of employees don’t have full trust in their leadership, and it’s kind of rampant, and most of it just has to do with getting information out. I one time did a — this is pretty recently — I did a leadership retreat, and we did a breakout with, you know, at the tables, everyone was able to talk, and some we talked about this idea of listening, and are you being heard, and do you know, and it came out that one table had just heard about sort of a major change that was happening at that event. “Nobody tells us anything. We just heard it today.” I’m like, “Oh!” I had a little conversation with the organizer after that. I said, “Hey, this is what I heard. People didn’t know this.”

JoDee 14:26
And Kathy, should leaders have a method to help their team members understand their purpose in the organization, and how… how might they create a method?

Kathy 14:39
I know in the work that you do, you know that, you know it’s different generationally, but you know the generation that is entering the workforce now wants to know what’s my purpose here. They’re very driven by purpose. And I think when an organization has a clear method to, to show purpose, it’s so important. I’ll give an example which I think is kind of interesting. Like I said, I do a lot of work in caregiving and senior care space and, and that’s kind of obvious. Your purpose is to care for another individual, and that’s sort of easy to build into a culture. But because I started my career in banking, I also do some work with banking. And we had this discussion with some — a group, and they couldn’t figure it out. You know, “we do bank transactions, you know, what’s the purpose?” I said, could you form a team that would teach financial literacy to young people? Could you do something within the community that connects first-time homeowners with lenders and teaches lending, you know, so you’re getting into that? I think we do have to be very intentional when sometimes purpose isn’t obvious in the job and to build that deeper connection. And I know a lot of organizations are doing things within the community, but actually using your vocation for purpose, you know, keeps people loyal. They stay. That’s one of my tenets. Purpose keeps people joyful.

Susan 16:11
I can really relate to that. I always say that it’s important that every employee understands why the work they do matters. Why does it matter? And then I think it ties right to the purpose. Why… Why am I going to spend the next 8, 10, 12 hours putting my soul into something? Does it really matter? Yeah, because I’ve got a purpose. Kathy, I love that. So why is dark chocolate best?

Kathy 16:37
Yes, that is in my bio. I probably have a bar sitting close by right now. Funny you should ask. If those who don’t know, I am a little dark chocolate addict, yes, and before I kind of did the work that I’m doing now, when I was raising my child with who had the severe disabilities, and part of her issue was she did not turn food into energy properly. So about… I had a background in food management. I studied business, HR, and then I minored in food management. So I’d taken the nutrition courses. So I really did a deep dive into powering the cells, because her cells couldn’t get powered. And in all of that, I did discover that dark chocolate has over 1000 phytonutrients, flavonoids. Those are the things that give it its taste, its texture, its color, its bitterness, its all of that. And so those things are used at the cellular level to keep cells energized. So not only that, but it also has way less sugar. I like to hold up my bar, which is an 85% dark chocolate bar from Trader Joe’s, and it has six grams of sugar, versus Hershey’s has 22 grams of sugar. So I always say it’s practically sugar-free.

Susan 17:56
It’s health, it’s health food. I need some! Thank you.

JoDee 18:02
That’s awesome. And Kathy, we like to ask all of our guests, what was your last JoyPowered® moment at work?

Kathy 18:11
It’s crazy you just asked that question because literally, just this morning, I was walking the dog, yes, in like, the 12-degree weather, and I always listen to a podcast, and I was listening to the story of Nike and how Nike was formed, and they started talking about the 10 tenets that Nike use. And I was like, I don’t have like tenets for my work. You know, I’m a solopreneur, and, you know, the people who help me out are usually virtual. And so I thought, hmm, and literally how you said, I said, well, it has to bring me joy, and I have to be able to give joy. That should be, like, my number one tenet. So that wasn’t really a moment in my work, but literally, just like, meeting with people, with you, and being able to be out with people, those are the items that cause me joy, and when I can solve a problem for someone, and of course, as a speaker, if I can make that connection from the stage and make someone laugh, those are all joy-filled moments. So. But I did, I really thought about that this morning on my 12-degree walk.

Susan 19:24
You know what? You found joy in bitter weather, so I think you could probably do it anytime, anywhere. Very impressive. So Kathy, How could our listeners reach out to you if they wanted to have you come speak, or they wanted to read your books, or just wanted to connect after today?

Kathy 19:38
Super easy. I’m KathyParry.com and I’m Parry with an A, because Katy Perry will not reach out to you. So P, A, R, R, Y, Kathy at Kathy Parry is the best way to find me too.

Susan 19:52
Excellent. We’ll put that in our show notes. Thank you so much for being here today.

JoDee 19:56
Yes.

Kathy 19:56
Thank you. It was wonderful to be with you, and I love you all are creating joy in the workplace for others.

Susan 20:05
If you like our show, check out Patreon page. We have three monthly membership tiers where you can get perks like the ad-free access to episodes, video recordings of the episodes, our top action items, and bonus episodes. And if you want to try it out first, you can sign up for a seven-day free trial. You’ll get access to past content when you join, so even if we don’t post anything new during your trial period, you can still get a taste of the perks members get.

JoDee 20:35
If you’re not ready to sign up for a membership, but want some of the perks, head over to the shop page on our Patreon. That’s where you can purchase individual episode video recordings, ad-free audio, and bonus episodes. You can find all this great stuff at patreon.com/joypowered. That’s P, A, T, R, E, O, N dot com slash JoyPowered. Thanks for listening and supporting our show.

Susan 21:12
JoDee, It’s time for the listener question. The following question came from a listener after our August 2024 podcast. Please know we welcome questions from any of our listeners anytime. “In a politically charged environment, what tools can people managers utilize to promote unity and collaboration?”

JoDee 21:33
Yeah, so it is a very interesting question right now. It is, things are very political, and with the executive orders really getting rid of DEI, I think it’s even more important that we focus on belonging and inclusion and making sure that we’re creating cultures and, and maintain, maintain work environments where people feel connected to it. I’ve always thought that helping people to understand their connection and their purpose, as Kathy mentioned earlier, to the organization is very important for people in a way that we might not even understand. For example, I think if you work for a non-profit, for example, some — many times, people will say, “Well, I work for this non-profit because I believe in its mission,” and their job may be directly related to the mission. But what if you’re in accounting or marketing or an internal role that might not physically serve in the mission? If you can still connect with the mission and purpose and understand what your role is doing to support those who do provide direct service, it can create much more value for you and your organization. Now that’s an easy one, when we talk about non-profits, I think, but what if you work for a company that makes screws, right, or digs ditches or builds bridges, right? Sometimes we have to look a little bit closer to, to find out what that is. I, a question I love to ask people is “Without telling me your job description or your job title, what do you get paid to do?” And I think that’s an interesting question to help people understand, why am I here, and what, what is the purpose of my role? I’ll answer that question myself. I could tell you that I’m an HR consultant or that I own an HR consulting firm, but I think I get paid to inspire and help to strategize with clients, to create JoyPowered® cultures and environments. That sounds a lot more exciting, don’t you think, than just an HR consultant, which most people think, well, what does that mean?

Susan 24:31
You’re right. Oh, I like that a lot. Yeah. I guess, if I had to answer that question, I, I think that I am paid to prevent and solve people issues.

JoDee 24:40
Yeah.

Susan 24:41
I think, yeah.

JoDee 24:42
Nice.

Susan 24:43
Much, much clearer. Yeah, that’s great. The other tool I would just mention for our listener, and I know we touted this before, but SHRM did a lot of work in 2024 on a Civility Index. A lot of research, they’ve come up with tools. Go to shrm.org, take a look at it. I think it helps figure out, how do we have respectful conversations in the workplace? How do we get to know each other in a deeper way and learn to kind of set up, you know, separate ourselves from some of the emotion we have around things that are happening in our environment?

JoDee 25:15
Yeah, yeah. I like it. Now, it’s time for in the news. In January 2025, Gallup released their latest study called The Global Leadership Report: What Followers Want. Gallup found that to face the evolving challenges of our time successfully, leaders must ultimately know three things. Number one, they must know the four needs of their followers: hope, trust, compassion, and stability. They must, number two, know themselves and invest in their innate strengths as leaders. And number three, they must know the demands of and expectations attached to their specific leadership role. Leaders in the world of work have a huge capacity to improve the lives of others. Employees are only slightly less likely to name someone from their work environment (at 34%) as they are to name a family member (at 44%) as the leader who has the biggest positive impact on our lives.

Susan 26:40
Wow.

JoDee 26:41
Leaders, take that to heart. You are having a significant impact on people’s lives.

Susan 26:50
Huge.

JoDee 26:51
Make it… make it… make it a wise one, right?

Susan 26:56
Right.

JoDee 26:58
In closing today, if you are SHRM certified, you can get credit for listening to this episode. To get the code, go to getjoypowered.com/shrm and fill out a short evaluation.

Susan 27:14
When you finish the, with the evaluation, you’ll get the code and a link to a proof of participation certificate. The code will expire on March 24, 2026. Again, that’s getjoypowered.com/shrm to get the code, and it’s going to expire on March 24, 2026. Thank you for listening, and thank you for your dedication to the HR profession. Please tune in next time.

JoDee 27:44
And make it a JoyPowered® day.

Susan 27:47
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