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Pamela Eyring (00:02)
Those little common things can really turn someone off. And in fact, maybe even not qualify you for a promotion and those kinds of things.

JoDee Curtis (00:17)
to The JoyPowered® Workspace Podcast, where we help HR and business leaders embrace joy in the workplace. I’m JoDee Curtis, owner of Purple Ink, an HR consulting and talent development firm, and with me is my friend and co-host, Susan White, owner of Susan Tinder White Consulting, an HR consulting practice. Susan also works as an executive collaborator for Purple Ink. And our topic today is on protocol.

As globalization continues to shape the corporate world, understanding unique business cultures and international business etiquette can be more important than ever. Here are some key trends. Cultural intelligence training. Companies are investing in cultural intelligence training to help employees navigate diverse business environments.

This includes understanding communication styles, negotiation tactics, and workplace norms across different cultures. Hybrid and remote work etiquette. With the rise of remote work, businesses are adapting to new etiquette standards, such as virtual meeting protocols, time zone considerations, and digital communication best practices.

Personalized business etiquette. Instead of a one size fits all approach, businesses are tailoring etiquette guidelines to specific regions and industries, ensuring more effective cross-cultural interactions. And an emphasis on relationship building. Many cultures prioritize relationship building over transactional interactions. So some companies are focusing on long-term partnerships rather than quick deals.

I have to add, think the vice versa is also still true in some organizations where they value transactional interactions as opposed to relationship building. So understanding the difference and what those cultures are focused on. And then also a respect for local customs. Businesses are making efforts to respect local traditions such as greeting customs, gift-giving practices, hierarchical structures in meetings. In light of this, I thought we would talk today about business etiquette.

I recently met Pamela Eyring at a conference and I was so intrigued with her background, skillsets and company offerings that I asked her to be a guest on the podcast. She specializes in protocol, etiquette, and communication training. So what does all that mean? Well, join me, join us in finding out. Pamela is the president and owner of the Protocol School of Washington, an accredited school focusing on international protocol, business etiquette, and communication skills.

With more than four decades of public and private sector experience in operational protocol and educational development, Pamela has extensive knowledge of both US and international practices and is a global thought leader in the etiquette and protocol industry. Currently, she oversees the school’s national and international operations in Washington, DC, Columbia, South Carolina and Dubai, United Arab Emirates.

Susan White (04:11)
Pamela, we are so glad that you are able to join us today. Thanks for being here.

Pamela Eyring (04:14)
Thank you very much, Susan.

Susan White (04:16)
Pamela, we would love for you to tell our listeners more about your background and how you got into the business of protocol, etiquette, and communication.

Pamela Eyring (04:24)
I’d love to share. When I was 18, I started working as a civil servant at the United States Air Force. And I’m so happy to have a job going to night school and was in the administrative field. And what was so funny is a friend of mine after a couple of years, like two years, she said, you should take my job. I got promoted. And I was like, okay, what do you do? I didn’t know. And we weren’t that close of a friend. And she says, well, I work in protocol. And I go, what is protocol?

And she goes, oh, you know, we buy gifts, we throw parties. It sounded so glamorous. I’m like, I could do that. Well, she lied to me. It was a lot of work. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, you know, you were planning these high-level ceremonies and special events and heads of state arrivals and meetings and conferences.

Uh, sure. We bought gifts. They were official gifts and sure we had events and dinners and galas, but you weren’t part of the party. That was okay. You know, it really taught me so much and that’s really how I got into it. And then I went in, uh, in the, I think it was 1995. I’d just become the chief of protocol at the air force base I was working at, at Wright-Patterson. And my friend called me and said, Pamela, I just went to the Protocol School of Washington. And I was…

What is that? And, you know, is that the Betty Ford Clinic for really rude people? You know, and she said, no, it’s training for us. We never had training. It was on the job training. then, you know, and so that’s where I went to the Protocol School of Washington and met our founder, Dorothea Johnson, and realized I didn’t know what I didn’t know. And it was a great moment, great moment.

JoDee Curtis (06:12)
Yeah, yeah.

Susan White (06:13)
Interesting.

JoDee Curtis (06:14)
And then you later ended up buying the business from…

Pamela Eyring (06:17)
I know, exactly, exactly. Well, we kept in touch, Dorothea and I, for many years. She would contact me to understand any military protocol, because she was very much interested in that, to share with other students that were coming through. And then fast forward, like in 2002 or so, she invited me to do some training for her, you know, on, you know, because I was, I went through the train the trainer program, and I was out there teaching in the air force and in my community. And I loved it. Absolutely loved it. So one day she called and we were talking and she says, Pamela, I’m going to sell the school. She was in her early seventies, mid-seventies. And I boldly said, would you consider me? And it was a pause, but then she said, I never thought you’d leave, you know, the federal government. And I said, I wouldn’t except for this opportunity. And then I go home to my engineer husband and said, honey, want to go, I want to leave the government and my military job and, know, buy the school and, you know, go in debt. Where’s your business plan? What are you thinking? But it was really, what an incredible journey it’s been. I never thought of that. And even when I graduate our classes today, I tell them, you never know where protocol will take you.

JoDee Curtis (07:43)
I love that story. So, well, Pamela, how are skills learned from protocol and business etiquette, really, central to building relationships in the workforce and even to advance your own career?

Pamela Eyring (07:58)
It’s a really excellent way to grow as a professional. You know, we think about what is protocol and what’s the difference between that and etiquette. You know, protocol are the rules that we put in our societies or in our professions to, you know, have less chaos, you know, have an orderly way of doing business. And it’s like etiquette is how we do that business. So if the protocol is to give a greeting, the etiquette is how we give that and the meaningfulness of that greeting. And so when we’re teaching those skills of when we say professionalism, you know, you think of, you know, having eye contact and greetings and, you know, understanding titles and forms of address. If someone’s a PhD or a physician, you address them by doctor, not, you know, hey, John, you know, something of that nature.

And so today it’s even more prevalent than ever. Because we’ve been, you know, over COVID and all these years of being behind a screen. You know, we have to do business in person more now. And a lot of people are rusty. They don’t know how to network and meet people. They don’t understand social cues and body language. And, you know, we’re out there trying to do business and build relationships.

And so when you’re working, you think of your colleagues. You never know who you’re going to work for someday. But those colleagues are very important, not only for support and working together, but this is a great way to practice your professionalism and consistency with it. And that could be the way you dress, appropriateness of the way you dress for work every day and for different events. It could be for accountability. Yes, I’ll have that for you tomorrow at two o’clock and not going, oh, I forgot about it. So those are the things that are in our daily lives.

Susan White (09:52)
Yeah, makes good sense. Pamela, do you have an example to share where maybe a lack of protocol, whether in corporate or government or a nonprofit sharing, led to confusion, conflict or missed opportunities?

Pamela Eyring (10:10)
There’s several I could say, but the one that comes to mind was doing some work for an equity group who actually sold real estate to internationals. And they were having difficulty communicating with them because they kept asking for more information, more information. And it really was just a difference in the culture. And they were getting upset. The Americans were getting very upset about that.

And, you know, I had to talk to one of them because they were this close to losing this deal with the South Koreans and this beautiful property in New York. And, you know, he was concerned, the president was very concerned that something could happen where this particular business development person would lose the sale. And I think he probably would have because he did not want to give him any more information. He didn’t, you know, he wanted to do it his way, which is you know, time is money and not understanding their culture, the Asian culture generally, you know, likes a lot of information before they make decisions. Some people are a little more advanced. A lot of Americans, we’re risk takers. Let’s do this, you know? And that’s really where the differences were. And that one was close.

And then I also saw one in the government and it can be just from a business card exchange. You know, the Department of Defense has a lot of contractors. And they go to these events to network and to meet the government people to talk about their products or their services. And I watched this senior executive service member and a contractor and the contract — he said, they were talking, it looked like it was going very well. And so the gentleman, the government official gave him his business card and the guy just grabbed it and threw it in his pocket. Didn’t look at it, didn’t hold it, did nothing, like, it meant nothing.

And later on we were at dinner and he said, I’m not doing business with him. He was very disrespectful. Who does that? And I was shocked. And sure enough, he was not invited to events. He was put to the side. Minor things like that can trigger someone. Or when I get emails that say, “hey, Pam,” you know, using “hey” as an honorific before you even know me. Now, like, if we’re friends, that’s a whole different picture. But yeah, so those little common things can really turn someone off. And in fact, maybe even not qualify you for a promotion and those kinds of things.

JoDee Curtis (12:54)
Mm hmm. Pamela, I think when I met you, I shared this example with you, although now I have to admit, I still sort of forget what the proper protocol was. But early in my career, I worked in a large office building and some Japanese executives were temporarily in our building until their plant was built nearby. And I —

To me, they seemed super unfriendly. And I made it a goal of mine when I was on the elevator with them that I was going to get one of them to smile at me in the elevator. And, you know, I would be like, hey, how are you today? They would just kind of look at me like, who are you? And so it was almost, I have to admit, it was almost like a game with me to try and get them to smile at me and it never worked. And I think you told me some culture facts about the Japanese that would later explain that, that I just really had no idea.

Pamela Eyring (14:09)
They’re very much proper in business. And to show emotion is a weakness to some. They’re very well educated, but they’re also educated and they understand our etiquette probably better than we do. However, it shows strength, it shows confidence when they don’t smile. In fact, in photographs, they would visit our Air Force base and…They didn’t want, when they took photographs and you can look at their family photos, they were smiling. And it were always bugging me, but now behind the scenes they will once they get to know you and get comfortable with you, but at least you tried to be polite and nice and trying to break a smile. But it’s tough, it’s tough, especially in the business arena. Because they feel they have more control, especially in negotiations. And if you ever, for those people that are that are listening that are maybe 80s people. There’s a movie called “Gung Ho” with Michael Keaton where, my gosh, if you wanna just have a good laugh, all the cultural problems are right there. It ends well, but it’s just, I cringe every time I watch that show. Like, that’s good.

JoDee Curtis (15:11)
Yeah.

Susan White (15:20)
Okay, thanks for the recommendation.

JoDee Curtis (15:27)
Yeah. Well, that’s, you know, Pamela, today we work in the fast-paced, informal, much more informal work cultures than we used to. Do you, does some people think, you know, protocol is old fashioned or even irrelevant these days?

Pamela Eyring (15:45)
You know, I think the term etiquette, some people have bad impressions of it from their parents. You know, if they use the wrong fork, they got smacked on the fingers or perhaps in school, they got an eraser thrown at them. I mean, back in my day, but you know, I think today they’re realizing, because I’m getting calls from companies regularly, we’re getting information, you know, that they need help. They don’t like unprofessionalism. And they see it as that. And so call it communications, you can call it protocol, you can call it whatever, but actually I’m seeing a boom in it, that people are coming back and contacting us for help. In fact, I’m doing a training in Texas and these are young people too. They’re new hires, they’re intelligent, smart young people.

And there’s also generational etiquette that you have to look out for, because there are some differences there. However, they want to learn. They want to learn to dress appropriately and feel that confidence and maturity. And I think if they’re open for learning, they can be very successful in their career. And it has nothing to do with generations, really. It’s really about understanding and bringing to the table your value consistently.

That’s where they want to understand these things, and oh, I didn’t know, because they’re not confident. You getting in a group of people you don’t know is uncomfortable. A lot of people have anxiety when they go to an event and they know no one. So how do we get them, you know, prepared? so we practice it. You how do you get in a group of people? How do you get out? Business changes, digital business cards, all of the above. And yeah, so a lot of the Human Resources are contacting us for that.

JoDee Curtis (17:42)
Yeah.

Susan White (17:43)
I’m sure that is very welcomed. I know today, I think we have much more recognition as HR professionals and business leaders that there are many people with disabilities, visible and the invisible ones. Sometimes ⁓ we, as people who have a disability, we don’t pick up on social cues. Any part of your practice, do you help people recognize that when people’s behaviors may feel inappropriate, there could be an invisible disability behind it and maybe some sensitivity?

Pamela Eyring (18:12)
Both, absolutely. And so that’s why we give them other ways of greeting, for instance, or to watch their social cues. So if you see that they’re just not… having some challenges or they wanna keep their distance from you, oftentimes people that have some of those, a disorder of some sort, will want some distance from you. You don’t want to be too close because it makes them very uncomfortable.

JoDee Curtis (18:28)
Yeah.

Susan White (18:29)
Yes.

Pamela Eyring (18:40)
It makes other people uncomfortable too. But keeping your distance, watching those cues, it doesn’t mean that there’s anything wrong. I’m on the board of directors for the National Alliance for Mental Illness here in South Carolina. And it’s taught me so much about that invisible… people look at disabilities like if you have lost a finger or those things, but there’s so much more behind that. And so being respectful to it, not knowing if they didn’t shake your hand or they shook your hand in a softer way or a quick way, it doesn’t mean that they don’t like you or maybe they can’t keep eye contact.

Susan White (19:14)
Or don’t look exactly, don’t look you in the eye. And I’ve had a lot of interviewers say, well, they can’t work here because they’ve got to look me in the eye, they have confidence, and they’re automatically deciding what the right protocol is based on their own filters. So I love that. I’m glad that you incorporate that.

Pamela Eyring (19:42)
Yeah, it just takes some time for someone to build that trust and it just takes a little time.

Susan White (19:47)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, beautiful. So every organization does have unwritten rules, but protocol, etiquette training turns the invisible into the intentional. How does formalizing these practices impact culture, leadership, and external reputation?

Pamela Eyring (20:03)
Well, it’s a branding. You your people are you. You know, I have nine people that work for me and we work very strongly together and you have to embrace the differences of people, but it’s a brand. When they understand our values that we have, our culture, our corporate culture, and that’s how I hire is, you know, I can teach them some of the skills, but I want, I want those people to really have a heart for others, to understand people, the best customer service, you know, if they call, we respond in a very quick way. You can always get ahold of us. Even myself, they’ll track me down. It doesn’t matter what country I’m in, they’ll find me. And that’s kind of our policy.

And so I think with companies and institutions, universities, they need to put this in their training manuals. I find that even as simple as instead of saying, if somebody says, thank you, don’t say, “no problem,” you know, “it’s fine,” “all good.” Why don’t you try something like “you’re welcome”? See me again. Yes, yes. And that powerful message of just saying you’re welcome, know, they feel better about you. Some of the wording that we use. So it’s a branding thing. So anytime that individual is at a social event, a meeting with other people or clients, you want them prepared and ready.

JoDee Curtis (21:17)
Right.

Pamela Eyring (21:30)
And we all don’t have to look alike or wear the same clothing. We can have our personalities come through. But just understanding where the lines are a little bit. How far you cross over the magic line.

JoDee Curtis (21:44)
Yeah, yeah, nice. You know, I have to tell you, even when we met and you used the word protocol, I mean, my first thought was about royalty, red carpets and flags and the military. Why do you think, why do we think about that narrow perception of the word protocol and are — you mentioned about maybe there’s a shift in people recognizing the value of protocol. Are you, do you see that everywhere?

Pamela Eyring (22:20)
Well, it’s easy, you know, because we watch television, we see media and social media to see the royalty part of that, you know, the customs and courtesies, the grand parades and affairs or, you know, or visits to another country or heads of state visiting us. So it’s more visible. But in, you know, in today’s businesses and organizations, how does that reflect? It’s really kind of comes down to customer service, if you think about it.

So say, JoDee, you and Susan are hosting someone to come to your offices, you’re gonna have a meeting, you wanna show them what you do, you have this great opportunity. So you need to coordinate all those details, like a protocol officer would, or an event manager, or a communications specialist, or marketing, where they are confirming and contacting that individual or their office, making sure they have maybe a reserved parking spot if parking is critical, perhaps making sure they had an itinerary. When they arrive, someone is at the door to greet them and escort them to that meeting space, because they don’t know the building. Instead of them looking around is how you treat them. So you get them upstairs and then the point of, or the host, if you will, the CEO, vice president, whoever it is, is there to greet that person, welcome that person into the meeting space, having refreshments, having a seat for them at the table that’s appropriate for their rank or their position, as we say in corporate world. And understanding that precedence and hosting that person. All those little details really can impress someone that you’re hosting or being just a good guest if you’re attending an event. You know, be on time, have your business cards ready, you know, have your, I don’t want to call it an elevator pitch, but be able to share what you do and be proud of it.

JoDee Curtis (24:24)
Right, right. Good advice.

Pamela Eyring (24:27)
Yeah, so we might not get the red carpet, but we can get the red carpet treatment.

Susan White (24:33)
Yes. Pamela, how could our listeners reach out to you if they’re interested in engaging your services or learning more about protocol?

Pamela Eyring (24:42)
Well, they can always go to our website at PSOW.edu. We are an accredited institution and we provide certificate programs and CEUs as well, not degrees, but those executive education courses. So they can contact us at our website. And we’re on LinkedIn, all the social media channels, we’re there as well, the Protocol School of Washington.

JoDee Curtis (25:08)
Nice. And Pamela, we don’t want to let you go without asking, we ask all of our guests about joy at work. And what’s something, a change or a step you’ve made during your career that boosted your joy at work?

Pamela Eyring (25:17)
You know, I will tell you, JoDee, it’s the leaning in of fear. I find that a corporate, especially business owners, where there’s fear out there. You know, we all have it in our personal lives too. And, you know, I used to be fearful of, you know, traveling or, you know, embracing another culture. And what really struck me was when, in the first recession we had, we had a call from the protocol department of Dubai.

And, you know, I didn’t know really much about that country or their culture. And I did some, you know, understanding some of their culture. And a mentor of mine told me, you know, because negotiations kind of stalled and he says, they’re a face-to-face culture. You need to go there. And I was in a smaller business, you know, then, and I was like, what? I’m watching every dollar. You want me to fly over to Dubai and just have a meeting? I’m like, are you crazy?

And I was a little concerned, you know, we lived through 9/11 and there’s some generalizations and I really had to lean in to bust those fears and to understand their country and their culture. And when I went over there, I’ve never been received better in any other country besides Saudi Arabia, but that hospitality level. And although the meeting took over two, two and a half hours, unlike here in the U.S., I was patient as I was told from my mentor and I used that technique later through my life and through things I was scared of. I’m like, I’m gonna lean in. What’s the worst thing that can happen? Well, maybe not jump out of a good airplane, but I’m gonna lean into something I’m fearful about and gain knowledge about it so I’m not. And that brings me joy when I go, ha, I did it.

JoDee Curtis (27:20)
Well, and now you have an office over there, right?

Pamela Eyring (27:23)
We do, we do. And I’ve taken some of my team over there. I’m gonna educate them as well because we do so much business there and just lovely people, just incredible. But you know, we have, you know, we see things on media, but it’s been really great. If I hadn’t went on that trip, I would never have had that kind of business and sure in the heck wouldn’t have an office over there. So that brings me joy when I can just get through the fear and try something.

JoDee Curtis (27:54)
Yes. Well, thank you for sharing that and thank you for joining our podcast today. I know it’s going to be very interesting for, it has been interesting for us and will be for our listeners as well. So thank you.

Pamela Eyring (28:09)
You’re welcome, JoDee…

Susan White (28:10)
Thank you.

Pamela Eyring (28:10)
…and Susan. Thank you very much. If anyone has any questions, tell them to contact us. We’re happy to help.

JoDee Curtis (28:18)
I will.

Susan White (28:18)
We will do that. Thank you so much, Pamela.

Pamela Eyring (28:20)
Thank you, ladies.

Susan White (28:22)
JoDee, we have a listener question. “I’d like to learn about the differences and similarities of in-house recruiters and recruiting staffing firms. What would be best for a business to use as a resource?”

JoDee Curtis (28:34)
Yeah, well, let’s talk about the difference between the two. In-house recruiters are employed by a business and focus solely on meeting that business’s hiring needs, where generally recruiting firms operate as external entities that collaborate with multiple businesses. They specialize in sourcing talent across industries and geographies, leveraging external networks to fill positions.

In-house recruitment, therefore, involves fixed costs such as salaries, benefits, administrative expenses, whereas recruiting firms typically charge fee based on successful placements, often as a percentage of the candidate’s annual salary or maybe a flat rate. While that might seem like a costly expense upfront,

It does eliminate ongoing payroll expenses associated with an internal team and can be more economical for businesses with fluctuating hiring demands. Now, in-house recruiters typically excel at understanding the nuances of their company’s specific hiring requirements because they work there every day.

But they might lack broad industry experience or access to specialized talent pools. Again, on the opposite side, recruiting firms boast extensive experience across industries and often maintain robust databases of pre-vetted candidates. And this can make them particularly effective for sourcing niche roles.

Now, because of this difference in style, in-house recruiters might take longer to fill roles because they may have more limited resources and networks. And their process focuses on quality over speed, ensuring a meticulous review of candidates. But recruiting firms with their scalable tools and networks can many times fill positions faster.

And that makes them ideal for urgent hiring requirements or ramping up for a specific project. So businesses with consistent and predictable ongoing hiring needs, especially larger organizations, typically benefit from employing in-house recruiters. Their commitment to the company ensures long-term alignment with its vision and culture.

Now recruiting firms might be a better choice for businesses experiencing rapid growth or seasonal hiring spikes or required specialized talent they may need. Small to medium enterprises with irregular recruitment needs often find recruiting firms more cost effective than maintaining a full-fledged recruiting team.

Additionally, startups or companies venturing into new industries may benefit from the expertise and networks that recruiting firms provide. Now, full disclosure, Purple Ink has a recruiting arm ourselves. And just as an example of comparing the two, many times we work with organizations who don’t have a recruiting team or even with very large organizations, their recruiting teams might be focused on key or the bulk of their positions. So for an example, an internal recruiting team at a senior living facility might focus and work on all the recruiting openings for healthcare positions, nurses and aides, which are the bulk of those positions.

But when they need to hire someone in the corporate office occasionally, so they might need to hire someone in accounting or HR or marketing or other administrative roles, then they would reach out to us. So I don’t think it has to be an either/or of doing one or the other. It could be a combination of both.

Susan White (32:53)
And I think I would just jump in here that I think having, being flexible, maybe having a hybrid model for, as you said, that nursing home, going ahead and having the HR people do what they do best, but for those niche roles, it’s not really necessarily the best use of their time to go out and learn about a specialty area and try to build a network from scratch. Why not tap into an agency or an organization like Purple Ink that already has that pipeline built? Staying fungible, staying flexible about it, I think is really the wisest way to be thinking about this.

JoDee Curtis (33:35)
Right.

Now it’s time for in the news. In our show notes, I’ll include a link to an April 2025 article about a company called Unnamed Ventures. They are redefining workplace well-being with science-backed strategies that resonate across industries.

the article, they refer to scientific studies which have consistently demonstrated the direct link between employee well-being and productivity. And I’ll mention just a few. They had two different studies with British Telecom and the Journal of Labor Economics. And they both found that happier employees are 12 % more productive than less happy counterparts.

Northumbria Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust in the UK transformed unused hospital spaces into affordable 24-7 gym facilities for staff. By enhancing services for their 29,000 employees, many who work in physically demanding roles, they had a 27% reduction in sick days. Like, that’s huge. And another example, Land O’Lakes in the US revamped its employee assistance program with grassroots initiatives tailored to emotional wellbeing. I thought some of these were creative.

Akamai Technologies implemented initiatives such as sleep improvement workshops, pet therapy sessions, and mindfulness speaker series. These programs enhanced employee resilience and satisfaction measurements. Now,

I don’t know anything about this company. So this is not an advertisement for them on what they’re doing, although it might sound like that. But I remember when wellness in the workplace really became a hot topic, at least for the firm I was with was back in the early 2000s. And we spent thousands of dollars on healthy snacks, step tracking rewards, fun competitions and wellness screenings.

And although I think we all knew it was good for our employees, we were never really able to measure that. So I was just glad to see this article that there are more science-based strategies and impactful results being measured now. So if your company is interested in implementing some of those, there’s a lot more research out there today.

Susan White (36:23)
If you’re SHRM certified, you can get credit for listening to this episode. To get the code, go to getjoypowered.com slash SHRM and fill out a short evaluation. When you finish the evaluation, you’ll get the code and a link to a proof of participation certificate. The code will expire July 14, 2026. Again, that’s getjoypowered.com slash shrm to get the code and it’s going to expire on July 14, 2026. Thank you for listening and thank you for your dedication to the HR profession.

JoDee Curtis (37:02)
Make it a JoyPowered® day.

Susan White (37:05)
Thank you.