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Margaret Kelsey (00:02)
Anytime we introduce new tech, that’s what comes with it. Tremendous opportunity and tremendous responsibility.

Susan White (00:12)
Welcome to The JoyPowered® Workspace Podcast, where we help people leaders embrace joy in the workplace. I’m Susan White, owner of Susan Tinder White Consulting, an HR consulting practice. Joining me is my dear friend and co-host JoDee Curtis, owner of Purple Ink, a large-scale HR firm that I’m part of as an executive collaborator.

On this podcast, we have been talking about AI since 2019, when we did our first podcast on this topic, which we entitled “AI in Recruiting,” followed by another episode, “AI Recruiting Trends,” that we did in 2022, and then “How HR Leaders Should Be Thinking About AI,” and most recently in 2025 with “Using AI in HR.” Honestly, we feel like we have just scratched the surface and there are lots more to digest as we continue to learn more and more about this game-changing phenomena and its potential, hopefully, to make more JoyPowered® workspaces. JoDee, are you getting tired of this topic or you feel like we’re just starting to get more understanding of it?

JoDee Curtis (01:18)
It’s funny, I go back and forth actually. Like, some days I’m like, “I’m so tired of hearing about AI,” and then I’ll learn something new in AI or do something in AI that I’m so terribly proud of myself for using that then I get all amped up about it. So, it’s both ways. Although I have to say I’m impressed we did our first podcast in 2019 on it.

Susan White (01:33)
Yes. We were visionaries, JoDee, visionaries.

JoDee Curtis (01:48)
We were.

Susan White (01:50)
Almost all organizations that McKinsey surveyed in their The State of twenty — of AI in 2025: Agents, Innovation, and Transformation report say that they are now using AI in some way. Most say they are still in the experimentation or the piloting phase though.

So we think it is a time for us as business leaders to think through how do we leverage the good and mitigate the risks of the bad as we navigate this revolutionary, transformational, I’ll say it again, new piece of technology. And we know that this is going to no doubt be pervasive change in our world of work, so we need to get strategic about it.

As AI rapidly reshapes how we work, we learn, we create, and we connect, the deeper challenge is building cultures that keep human dignity, creativity, judgment, and our employees’ well-being at the center. In this episode, we’re going to explore what it means to approach AI humanistically, understanding adoption patterns, recognizing who may be left behind, navigating both the promise and the pitfalls of implementation, and creating environments where technology expands human potential rather than diminishes it. Wow. Pretty heady stuff, isn’t it, JoDee?

JoDee Curtis (03:12)
Yeah, yeah.

Susan White (03:14)
To help us get our arms around this topic, we’ve invited our guest today, Margaret Kelsey. Margaret is a learning architect, a senior instructional designer, and human-centered AI adoption consultant. For more than two decades, Margaret has helped organizations translate complex change and practical learning experiences, leadership programs, cultural initiatives, and performance support that builds capability, shifts behavior, and makes transformation easier to sustain.

She’s currently pursuing her PhD in humanistic psychology with an emphasis on creativity, innovation, and leadership at Saybrook University, and she holds her master’s from Harvard Graduate School of Education in Human Development and Learning Environments. Welcome, Margaret.

Margaret Kelsey (04:05)
Thank you so much for inviting me. I so enjoyed our collaboration a couple years ago on the SHRM project, and I’m just delighted to know that you’re doing this and we’re crossing paths again at this really important time, right, with AI.

Susan White (04:18)
I agree, so agree.

JoDee Curtis (04:18)
Yeah.

Susan White (04:20)
You know, Margaret, you really were an early adapter to AI and you’ve even written a book on the topic within the last couple of years. What drew you to artificial intelligence and what are you continuing to wrestle with about it?

Margaret Kelsey (04:33)
what drew me to artificial intelligence is probably what’s always drawn me, which is I’m I refer to myself as half geek, half psychologist. So my entire life I have been interested in how we’re using technology to advance human potential, and my all my career choices have basically been driven by that inspiration and passion.

And so for me, I always looked at technology primarily in the corporate space and I was able to apply that passion through the lens of instructional design. And so when AI started, and mostly — let’s also classify when we say AI, because AI is broad and it’s been here for a long time, I think what we’re really referring to is right now generative AI and the capacity for people to use these tools, these platforms using natural language, right?

And so that introduction with ChatGPT was primarily one of the foremost, the forerunners, if you will. When I saw the lift with that, I immediately, because my mind has always done this, thought, “Wow, what’s that going to do for humanity?” Kind of reminded me of when Facebook — do you remember when Facebook allowed people to make videos? And I thought, wow, what have we just done? We have just given everybody a tremendous opportunity, but also tremendous responsibility. So anytime we introduce new tech, that’s what comes with it. Tremendous opportunity and tremendous responsibility.

And so I just found myself plugged in. You know, I couldn’t help it. It’s just how I’m wired. I got plugged in. And yeah, and then I came out with that book because I recognized that it was going to offer, oof, you know, it’s gonna bring in a lot of challenge for organizations to introduce AI and there’s already a lot of bias in generative AI and so it feels really important to me to make sure that all the industries are represented because otherwise the bias just continues. And so I thought “We need this for wellness,” and so that’s why the book was focused on harnessing AI to create wellness workshops. So to give wellness coaches the opportunity to launch right in easily and learn how to use generative AI to support their work.

JoDee Curtis (06:54)
Yeah, I love it. And Margaret, you use the term “humanistic AI” a lot. How do you define that term and why is a humanistic lens important for us?

Margaret Kelsey (07:11)
A humanistic lens, the way I define it, first of all, it isn’t meaning that we’re going to make AI more human-like. I mean, yes, there’s a lot of focus on that because then that supports adoptability and adaptability and the diffusion of it. For me, though, humanistic AI means are we, as we implement this, are we paying attention to how we can support human flourishing?

So for instance, right now it’s not uncommon with a capitalist society, which a lot of the Western world is becoming, we see products and services being streamlined with AI. You know, the proliferation of more products and services coming out. My question is always, does humanity need that?

And so what I think we really must do is ask when we’re implementing AI, how and where are we keeping human needs, human problems, human challenges at the forefront so that we could be harnessing this technology to truly, as I mentioned, advance us, versus do what we’ve been doing, which is producing a basically consumeristic, disposable society that has just caused us to exploit more and more resources.

And so, as we know, too, you know, with all these data centers drawing on the energy grid like they are, we need to be really mindful of how we’re using this. Are we using it just for the proliferation and the streamlining of services and products we don’t really need, or are we keeping the human center and the human focus?

JoDee Curtis (08:49)
Yeah, I like it.

Susan White (08:51)
I do too. So I know you keep a pulse on this. Margaret, can you share with our listeners how do you see AI being a — adoption unfolding across gender, sectors, roles, and businesses that we might recognize?

Margaret Kelsey (09:06)
Well, let’s start off first by recognizing before we even talk about how it’s rolling out, let’s talk about how it’s rolled out, which is AI sits on massive data centers that, as we know, are already biased because the content of the data has been largely informed by businesses, organizations, data repositories that have bias.

You know, here’s a here’s a classic example. When I wanted to create an AI image of myself driving down — for my vision board, driving down the California highway, I wanted to show — here it is, one day I’ll add into this vision map — I wanted to have myself be in the driver’s seat of a Porsche.

I could not get the AI to generate that image. It kept putting me in the passenger seat. Because all of the training data, everything, if you were to do a quick search, “woman in a Porsche,” she’s going to be in the passenger seat. That isn’t it. That’s just one of the many examples that exist. You know, a very specific example of how bias is there.

Now, when you think about all the other bias we have, that’s represented, it’s represented in our lexicon, it’s represented in our stories, our narrative. And so now moving forward again, which is why when it comes to the adoption, it’s essential that we level the playing fields.

We already see a lag with women. And in part because, you know, technology has been a tech bro industry. You know, you go to any graduation ceremony right now from for the people who are graduating from information tech, out of ten graduates, only two to three are women. And so that same percentage is showing up in the, you know, the adoption rates.

But what’s also important to ask is, well, why is that? And it’s because women and men are asking different questions. Women are going to be asking, is this safe to use? Can I trust this? Can this expand on my creativity? How can this support me? These are different questions than how can I use this to get ahead? How can I use this to streamline things? And so the mindset of what the different genders are bringing to the question is showing up. And so we’ve got to do everything we can to get out there and encourage women to step into it.

And so that’s why I love things like there’s a group out of they got established out of Boston, Women Applying AI. It’s a fantastic group to join. Same with another one is AI Powered Women. And so anything women can do to get support around other women and with other women is essential.

JoDee Curtis (11:55)
Yeah. Nice, nice. And you know, the question of the day that we all want to know the answer to is should employees be worried about their job security because of AI? What are your thoughts on that?

Margaret Kelsey (12:13)
I hate to be the bearer of bad news. Yes, and it depends upon the company you’re working for. Right? So if you’re working for a company that’s out of touch with people’s needs, if they’re part of a culture that values greed and profit over employee fulfillment and collaboration and innovation and creativity, then most likely you’re going to be working for an organization that’s going to be introducing and implementing AI to automate. And any job where your tasks can be automated are certainly going to be on the chopping block. That’s just the reality of how business works today. Corporate business.

If on the other hand you’re working for an organization that cares about its people and its culture, so let’s take IKEA, for example. IKEA did a fantastic job of saying we’re going to introduce AI, but we’re not going to lay off anybody. And so using AI, they were able to assess where and how are consumers coming to them for what types of questions. And they were able to say, okay, we can now use AI to handle some of the basic fact stuff. But what consumers were really wanting was more support around design choices. So they reskilled all the people who are answering the basic questions like when are you open, you know, to helping those who are really calling to say what’s the best way for me to lay out my kitchen with the new, you know, shelves that you came out with.

So this is where paying attention to what your company values is really important, and we’ve seen that before. We’ve seen the rise of value-based talent acquisition, right? It’s — companies are having to pay attention to their values, they’re having to pay attention to employee needs more than ever before to retain quality employees.

So on that note, I think what’s most important is for employees to remember that AI is here to do one of three things: automate, augment, and transform. And so pay attention to your role and think, okay, am I in an industry where I do a lot of things that are just automatic, it’s routine? And if that’s the case, then ask, well, how can I use AI instead to augment what I’m doing, to support what I’m doing, to help me advance my understanding of something, like, and use it as a way to strengthen my skills. Because when you can do that, then you can also turn to AI, which is really a problem solver to help support transformation within a business.

JoDee Curtis (14:50)
Right, right.

Susan White (14:51)
Very fair. Thank you. Let’s flip the script. And what do you think employers should be worried about as they think through where they’re going to deploy AI?

Margaret Kelsey (15:01)
As a Kendall Partner, one of the things we recognize is that companies want to jump into introducing an AI solution. And in order to introduce AI and especially agentic AI, what we have to remember is it does not thrive on ambiguity. It thrives on verified data.

And so companies like you and I and Susan know, how strong are companies at discerning the context of a problem? They’re really good at naming a problem, but not necessarily defining that problem. Classic example, like, very simple, break it down, even just a different industry. You go in and you go into a hardware store and you say, “I need a drill bit. I want to drill a hole.” I need a hole. That’s the problem. I need a hole. So the salesperson brings you over to the drill bits and shows you the drill bits. They don’t ask what kind of hole? Going into what? How deep is the hole going to be? Is there going to be solutions or water around the hole? You know what I mean?

And so that’s what happens within organizations. They see the hole, they think of the solution, and now they’re thinking, how can an AI fit that gap? In order for AI to do an effective job, it needs to go through the period — I mean, it needs to go through the process of really fully understanding the context. And that context has to be curated by humans who recognize the problem and see everything wrapped around it. Because AI can’t function without being trained.

And so all this is the data that supports training the AI systems that organizations will be using. So I think the biggest challenge that companies have is making sure they’re not jumping in thinking that AI is just another tool. It’s not. It’s a full-blown intelligence. And intelligence requires context.

JoDee Curtis (17:00)
Yeah, that’s great, great insight to that. You mentioned IKEA earlier, but what are some other companies out there doing to really keep the humanity in their embracement and usage of AI?

Margaret Kelsey (17:18)
I really encourage people to come to the AI Powered Women Conference because that’s one of the places where you’re going to see women applying AI to specific challenges. So for example, there is a company that is producing a tool that makes it possible for a holographic image and holographic machines to be able to be placed in remote places of the country so patients can go in with their concerns and that information can be shared with somebody in a totally other part of the country. And so through the use of holographic health care, patients in remote places can be diagnosed better. That’s a humanistic expression.

Another example is there is with vibe coding. So one of the things we see happening is vi — do you know what vibe coding is? Vibe coding is the ability, these are platforms that make it possible for anybody to go in and create a product, I mean, a software solution, if you will, using natural language. So I can go to, like, Lovable and I can type in “I want to create a software tool that will enable me to generate a chatbot,” which I did actually, “that provides basic conversational tips to mothers who are having challenges with their teenagers.” And I did that because that’s my current reality. And so what mother is not challenged by this with a 17-year-old son? And you know, I’m in a unique situation because I’m a sole parent and so I wanted just some basic, conversational strategies.

You know, in the moment I’m struggling. I don’t have time to call up a therapist or a coach. I just need a quick little conversational strategy. So I designed, using Lovable, a quick chatbot that does that. And I’ve trained the chatbot on how to understand all the difficult developmental stages of teenagehood, masculinity, the social pressure pressures they’re under, the mother-son interaction and studies, like, you feed the AI with these things to be able to then generate a new solution. And so it’s a really great little tool.

So the potential for vibe coding, like, another product that I just came across or solution I just came across is somebody designed a tool where mentors can connect with mentees. And so it’s things like this, I think, that are going to be cropping up more and more. You’re gonna see far more entrepreneurial efforts and solutions that tap into the point of need and aren’t relying on the big guns, the big technical guns to produce it.

JoDee Curtis (20:12)
Yeah, yeah.

Susan White (20:13)
That all makes sense, yeah. Margaret, is there anything that leaders that are listening to us today, they should avoid doing on the AI front? Any tips that you wanna share?

Margaret Kelsey (20:25)
They need to avoid perpetuating bias. They need to avoid assuming that AI is human and ascribing human characteristics to AI. It’s not. It’s a technical platform of great sophistication. And to recognize that, they need to recognize its shortcomings and its strengths.

And ideally, as I’d like to share, you know, how can they use it to advance human potential? They also really need to ensure that they’re introducing governance and ethics early on. It’s at the point of interaction, it’s at the point of need through the entire process that the question needs to be asked. Is this the right application for AI? What’s the impact of this application ethically, morally? And how do we ensure that we’re going to be able to trace what’s happening with AI as we implement it? So that’s essential.

You know, and the teams that are necessary to do this, I don’t think are yet in place. You know, companies have always had an ethics team for compliance matters and they’ve had security for concern around breach of data and so forth, but this is like a blending of the two. You know, and so that’s real.

Susan White (22:00)
Excellent point.

JoDee Curtis (22:00)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And any other advice you have for our listeners who really are looking to create that humanistic AI culture through values, literacy, reflection, responsible implementation, and humanistic content creation? Like that’s a lot, right? But any advice on that?

Margaret Kelsey (22:25)
I would advise thinking of AI as a creative partner. So a lot of people get upset thinking it’s going to replace creativity. And it will if we choose to be lazy. That, that’s on us. The degree to which we as humans choose to be lazy and turn to generative AI to produce content that is just easy.

But if instead you say, wow, you know, I want to use this to not say to AI, generate an image for me that looks like Gustav Klimt, but instead help me understand, what was Gustav Klimt’s style? How did he approach his work? Like, if you upload an image and say, describe to me, what are the techniques behind this picture? What are five things that I could try in my own artwork?

When you partner with AI to solve a problem — and the problem being there, how do I improve my own skills? Not do I delegate away, but how do I improve my own skills? — then I think you land on what we refer to as the edge, where it’s we’ve got human humanity, we’ve got intelligence, human intelligence, and we’ve got artificial intelligence. They each have their strengths, they each have their weaknesses. When you come to the middle, the bond, the potential is that much stronger and richer. It’s that much stronger and richer.

So I think what’s most important is for people to remember, it’s not here to replace us. It’s here for us to use wisely so that we can advance. Together, actually.

JoDee Curtis (24:08)
Yeah. Yeah. I like that.

Susan White (24:10)
Yeah, very fair.

JoDee Curtis (24:12)
I really like thinking about it as a creative partner too.

Susan White (24:18)
Yeah, I love that. So Margaret, what do you see as the opportunities for AI to help build joy in the workplace?

Margaret Kelsey (24:27)
Well, there’s a simple, I mean, there’s as simple as you’re having a rough day and you can type in, “I need a really good joke.” Just kidding. We really, we can’t, we can’t underestimate the value. We can’t underestimate the value of laughter, right?

But where does joy, you know, where does joy come from? You know, joy for me comes from the expression and permission of love, of human flourishing. And so I would say the opportunity to interface with AI in a way where you feel more alive after its use.

So for instance, I know myself, anytime I’ve gone to genAI, you know, any of the platforms and I get a whole, like, I can type in, and next thing you know, it’s a fire hose. It’s given me way more than I want. And I look over that piece and I’m like, wow, that’s exceptionally written. It’s, like, perfect. And then I almost go inside, there’s, like, a “ouch,” like, you did that so much better than I could have done myself. That’s not bringing me joy. Right?

Instead, I want to go to it and submit, like, a paper and say, tell me the ways in which I can improve this. What do you like about what I’ve written? Use it as a tool to support you. Then that’s uplifting. Then I come away going, I feel more empowered to try these things. Right? Now I’ve made it a partner in support of my growth.

JoDee Curtis (25:59)
Yeah, yeah. I love it.

Margaret Kelsey (26:01)
So I think that’s where the joy comes in. The joy comes in in having that open mindset to use it to support a greater expression and facet of yourself. And use it wisely so we don’t drain on the data centers on the grid unnecessarily.

JoDee Curtis (26:18)
Yeah. And Margaret, how can our listeners reach you if they’re to buy your book and or to engage with you?

Margaret Kelsey (26:31)
Yeah. Thank you. So my website is mhkleadership.com, so they can reach me that way and also through LinkedIn. And then I also have a passion project called everwise.life. That’s for teaching AI to savvy seniors and rockin’ retirees. And so that’s another little thing that’s out there. And with the book, the book’s out on Amazon. My one caveat is because things change so fast, I need to update it.

Susan did say that then she turns to it still. It does provide a quality introduction to how to approach AI, how to prompt, how to approach prompt engineering, because I got certified in that and wanted to make sure people understand the components that you want to put into your prompts to give it the context it needs. So yeah.

Susan White (27:23)
I was gonna say your book, I thought, was very well written and it helped somebody who had absolutely no where no knowledge of where to start. I just got very comfortable. And even though it was more about wellness coaching, I as a non-wellness person found it very useful. So.

Margaret Kelsey (27:46)
Good, I’m so glad. Thank you. That’s what it was designed for.

JoDee Curtis (27:50)
Well, thank you so much for joining us today. It was very insightful.

Margaret Kelsey (27:56)
I’m so glad. I could talk about this all day long. So thank you so much for having me. And I’m — yeah, I’m just delighted to share everything about this when the time is ready.

JoDee Curtis (28:02)
Yeah. Yeah, nice.

Susan White (28:13)
Okay. Thank you.

JoDee Curtis (28:15)
Susan, we have a listener question today. The listener asks, “What is the fine line between coworker and friend and to ensure not to cross it?” A long, long-lived question, right? That it’s still a, with all the changes in technology and innovation, it still is a difficult balance. “And you,” the listener says, “you cannot help becoming close with your coworkers since you’re with them every day, but how do you keep those lines clear?”

Susan White (28:31)
Yes. Oh man, I totally agree with you, JoDee. And I totally agree with our listener who wrote this in. It can be a real challenge, especially if you’re in a leadership position or in, like, HR or legal or compliance or some other sensitive area where you are privy to confidential information about the organization you work for. Many people make great friends. We’ve, in prior episodes, many people find their spouses in the workplace, and so there is a whole social dynamic that if you happen to be a supervisor, a manager, a leader, or somebody in a sensitive area, you just have to be so careful that you draw boundaries and that you don’t share information.

People are gonna know what you do and they very well may wanna tap into it to, you know, ask your opinion on things, which, understand given the role you’re in, that might carry more weight. So very, it’s not easy. Let me give you an example that I’ve seen.

Let’s say you have a friend at work who asks your opinion or asks for insights or asks for dirt about something. They — people tend to like drama. Not all people, but a lot of people. And you know that they know that because the role you’re in, you may know something about that drama. Yeah, about the allegation, about the whatever. You really have to change your hat from being that friend to turning back to your professional hat. And you might have to do it in the moment, in a moment’s notice, in the middle of a conversation, in the middle of a fun lunch, you’ve gotta stop, take a breath, and say, “you know, I know this might make you uncomfortable, but I can’t talk about that,” or “I can’t share that,” or I — you just have to refuse to divulge information, or you risk failing in your duty of confidentiality and of stewardship for the organization you work for.

So my advice is to be upfront. The first time a work friend nudges or suggests or asks you to share something or to do something that your professional gut knows is not a hundred percent right, that alarm bell kind of goes off in your head by letting them know you’re not comfortable with sharing, doing, or commenting on something, but that — and that you appreciate their understanding, and then stay consistent about it. Should they try it again or come at it from a different direction, if they don’t understand why you have to have these boundaries, I think you need to step back from that relationship and just be kind from a distance.

JoDee, I’m sure you’ve faced this in your role. Any advice that you have?

JoDee Curtis (31:23)
Yeah, I think you said it well. It’s, it can be a tough balance. And I know some HR people who are just like, “I don’t make friends at work,” and I think that’s a bit unrealistic too, right, to say you can’t make friends. You just have to be careful and honest about your role and your position and, you know, with so many… I feel like my head could explode with all the confidential information I’ve had in my head over the past forty years at work. And you just have to be true to the profession and your role.

Susan White (32:00)
Sure. Fair. Fair. I think that’s exactly right. Yeah. Well thank you, listener, and good luck. We know it’s not an easy road.

JoDee, it’s time for in the news. On April 21st, 2026, there was an article in USA Today by Medora Lee that was entitled, “College Grads Can Double Their Odds of Finding a Job by Doing This.”

It really grabbed my curiosity, you know, what good clickbait that was for me because I’m like, okay, if we could double our odds, I love to gamble, but like, where do I put the money down, right? Well, Lee cited a ZipRecruiter survey of 1,500 2025 and 1,500 2026 graduates. And what is that one thing that they can do to double their odds of success in finding a job?

Well, it’s having real work experience while going through college. It could be any kind of work, not necessarily related to the degree that they’re that’s being earned, but of course, that would be ideal. We love internships. We’ve talked about that before, but it — don’t limit yourself. If you can’t get an internship, just get a job because it’s not mandatory to be in that field.

We are currently, as we’ve talked about in our most recent episode, in a sluggish job market for fresh college grads. We know it’s harder today than it’s been in many years to land that first job out of college. Anything that you can do to differentiate yourself, like demonstrating a strong work ethic by staying at an organization through your college years, or balancing school and work, showing that you worked part-time during the school year, building office customer facing time management skills by any kind of job that you can secure can be to your employment or employability advantage.

JoDee, did you work when you were going through college?

JoDee Curtis (34:00)
Yeah. I — I mean, I worked all through high school too. And some of my jobs were, you know, I worked at a shoe store and I worked at Target, but I also worked for a stockbroker firm that gave me, you know, really strong just office type skills and working with other people. I did not have an internship in my field of accounting, which is pretty rare these days in the accounting… Anyway, I worked all through and I learned so much and I do think it helped me get that first job. My kids all worked during college too and I just think it’s really important, whatever the job is. So what about you?

Susan White (34:54)
Yeah. I did. I worked at a bank my summers and Christmas and Thanksgiving breaks. I did not work during the actual academic school year, but my husband did, my kids all did, and I think that really when you can balance taking classes while working, I think that is a testimonial to your work ethic and time management. So I did not do that. I was such a study worm. I would take classes, all I did was study. So. But I think that when I read this article and I think about today’s world, if you can work any kind of job while you’re taking classes, it’s gonna give you that hopefully that edge. So.

JoDee Curtis (35:33)
Yep, agree.

Susan White (35:36)
If you’re SHRM certified, you can get credit for listening to this episode. To get the code, go to getjoypowered.com/shrm and fill out a short evaluation. When you finish the evaluation, you’ll get the code and a link to a proof of participation certificate. The code will expire on July 13th, 2027. Again, that’s getjoypowered.com slash shrm to get the code and it’s going to expire on July 13th, 2027.

JoDee Curtis (36:09)
Thank you for listening today and as always make it a JoyPowered® day.

Susan White (36:15)
Thank you.