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Andrew 00:01
I find the employee resource groups to be a fantastic place to get that knowledge that you may not be able to develop in your own careers or on your own time.

Susan 00:15
Welcome to the JoyPowered® Workspace Podcast, where we help HR and business leaders embrace joy in the workplace. I’m Susan White, owner of Susan Tinder White Consulting, an HR consulting practice. Joining me is my co-host and dear friend, JoDee Curtis, owner of Purple Ink, a large scale HR firm that I’m an executive collaborator with.

Today we’re going to talk about employee resource groups, or business resource groups, or perhaps you know them by affinity groups, or even employee networks. We landed on this topic thanks to a listener who requested in August of 2023 that we discuss how to create, engage, and administer DE&I based employee business resource groups. In an August 30, 2023 article by Toki Toguri on diverst.com, she noted a McKinsey report that said that 90% of Fortune 500 companies have employee resource groups. Now, what they call themselves really does vary, but JoDee, let’s share the percentages of what the different names are that organizations use. Why don’t you start us off?

JoDee 01:22
Yeah, so 36% identify as an employee resource group.

Susan 01:29
32%, so very closely behind that, identify as a business resource group, or a BRG.

JoDee 01:35
4%, which I’m surprised this one was so low, identify as affinity groups.

Susan 01:43
And then another 4% identify as employee networks. The remaining 24% calls themselves something else. So for the purpose of this podcast, we’re going to refer to them as ERGs or employee resource groups, since 36% of Fortune 500 companies, that’s the moniker that they’re using. Pew Research reports that while 26% of workers say that there are employee resource groups where they are employed, only 6% of workers say that they’re members of such groups. Now the 10 most common employee resource groups, according to Toguri’s article, in order by frequency, are those that focus on…

JoDee 02:26
Women.

Susan 02:27
Alright. Number two is LGBTQIA+.

JoDee 02:32
Number three, disabilities.

Susan 02:35
Number four, veterans.

JoDee 02:37
Five is Black.

Susan 02:39
Number six is Hispanic or Latino.

JoDee 02:42
Number seven, Pan-Asian.

Susan 02:46
Number eight is multi-generational.

JoDee 02:48
Number nine, young professionals.

Susan 02:52
And number 10 is Indigenous Americans. You know, it’s interesting, JoDee, I came from a very large financial institution that had, you know, over 250,000 employees. To my recollection, they had all of these groups except for Indigenous Americans. But I’ve been gone now for 10 years, so I hope by now they do have an ERG with Indigenous Americans. So we’re going to, we want to dig in a little bit further into employee resource groups, so we thought we would talk to somebody very actively involved in his organization’s ERG and even more broadly. It’s, our guest today is Andrew Holbrook, who is Chief Accessibility Officer at Wells Fargo. Prior to that, Andrew was a Senior Vice President and analytics director with a work history in a variety of analytics, planning, and marketing roles. He’s also taught at the University of New Orleans and has worked for ABC Television. Andrew holds a master’s and a PhD in Political Science. I had the pleasure of working with Andrew at JP Morgan Chase before he moved to Wells Fargo 11 years ago. Welcome Andrew. We are so glad that you’re here.

Andrew 03:57
Well, thank you for having me. I’m looking forward to this conversation.

Susan 04:01
So what responsibilities does a Chief Accessibility Officer do, and especially at one of the top banks in the US, what kind of things do you do every day, or what do you worry about?

Andrew 04:12
Well, first of all, it’s such an honor to be the first Chief Accessibility Officer at Wells Fargo. It is a role that was recently created. It’s not common in financial services. It’s not, it’s not like this is the first one, but it’s definitely something which… it’s not universal. However, there are a lot of other organizations, especially in technology, where Chief Accessibility Officers have been there. And so to the answer to your question is, is that, well, we’re figuring a lot of this out along the way, but just where we root ourselves is that, if you think about the products and services that Wells Fargo is responsible for, my job is to help ensure that we are considering accessibility in the delivery of those products and services wherever we can. And the definitions of what is accessible? Constantly changing, constantly under revision, and in a global enterprise like Wells Fargo, they differ across states, municipalities, governments have very different guidelines on this, and just trying to find a way to manage to all of that so that we are delivering the most accessible products and services, that’s my job.

Susan 05:32
They couldn’t have a better person doing it.

Andrew 05:34
Well, thank you, Susan, and obviously it’s a pleasure to reconnect with you, and JoDee, a pleasure to connect for you, with you for the first time. But I, you know, that, that was, that was the other reason why I was really looking forward to this conversation, is that Susan, it’d give me an opportunity to reconnect with you.

Susan 05:52
Thank you.

JoDee 05:53
Nice. And Andrew, what value do you see employee research resource groups bringing to any organization and/or your current organization, as well?

Andrew 06:09
Well, I will say this, is that for me personally, having nearly 20 years experience in disability affiliated Employee Resource Networks, I wouldn’t be in the job that I have now had I not had that experience. So Susan and I worked at JPMorgan Chase together, and we were part of Access Ability, an employee resource group there. And then when I came to Wells Fargo, it was one of the first things that I did, was to get re-involved with the employee resource groups here at Wells Fargo. And I think part of it is, is that it helps with the acculturation, both if you’re new to the organization, but also if you’re long tenured into an organization, you may not know that you’ve got friends all over. And especially in large organizations, large companies like Wells Fargo, it is something where I have relied on ERGs and continue to rely on ERGs to be subject matter experts in things that I couldn’t possibly have subject matter expertise, and so I find the employee resource groups to be a fantastic place to get that knowledge that you may not be able to develop in your own careers or on your own time.

Susan 07:32
Yeah. So true. And I – for you, it has truly been, I think, personally, a wonderful way to spend any extra time or energy or focus. What do you think the benefits to the companies are to support having ERGs?

Andrew 07:47
Well, in in the most broad sense, especially for, for large companies that are doing a lot of work with consumers, ERGs are, in some cases, some of the best representatives of what consumer thinking is, because they may have geographic dispersiveness, they may have generational differences. They bring all of the great things about the communities in which they live and operate into the workplace, if you will. And so I look at ERGs as sort of being captured market research within a company and, and I, you know, there are examples where I have become informed about things that I had no idea about, and that has informed, how do we create products? How do we make sure that what we’re delivering in our branches reflect not just sort of a global view, but also the community view? And so I think ERGs are really good at connecting the head and the feet, as I like to call it, of the corporate body.

JoDee 08:51
Yeah, love it. And what advice do you have for people who are considering starting up an ERG? Where would you tell them to start?

Andrew 09:02
Well, first of all, do it. Second of all, in many companies, there will be existing volunteer networks, whether it be a formal organization or maybe just a handful of people that might be affiliated with a local organization. In my experience, in working with ERGs, a lot of it starts local and, and then becomes global. And so I’ve found in my 20, nearly 20 years of ERG work that partnering with local volunteer organizations – for instance, I know this is a podcast, but behind me, if the video were showing, there’s a Special Olympics football behind me. Special Olympics has a lot of affiliates across the globe, and invariably, whenever I’ve been involved with an ERG, there was some local affiliation with either a state chapter or a local organization, local games going on. And it turned into, well, you get a handful of people showing up to an event, and then next thing you know, you’ve got an army of like-minded people working towards, you know, a common goal. So that’s what I would suggest.

JoDee 10:14
Love it.

Susan 10:15
So business, the business leaders who are listening to us today, and the HR professionals, what advice do you have on how can, should they be engaging with the ERGs once they have them up? Any administrative tips, any advice you’d have to make sure that the members are feeling supported and, and that it’s really thriving?

Andrew 10:34
Oh, goodness gracious. That’s a, that’s a tougher question for me to answer, because, you know, I think what I have observed working for me is that the fun thing about ERGs is that they’re representative of a lot of different viewpoints. The challenging thing is that they’re representative of a lot of different viewpoints. And so in order to help address those two things, adding structure, providing some routines and some governance. My, my best experiences are when my HR professionals and partners were helping, if you will, create safe spaces for these communications to happen, but also making them also governed spaces, because the last thing that any company wants is for an ERG to start making statements, publicly presenting themselves as something that may not necessarily align with the goals of the company. And one of the most effective ways of doing that is, like, I always work with my HR partners to say, what, what can we do better? What is, what are we missing, either from a structure perspective, or even just from a governance perspective? And, and so I considered my HR business partners to be, you know, in essence, the first phone call, the first email, the first chat whenever, when I was, you know, in a leadership role within the ERGs. And I’ll say my current role, I stay very close to my HR partners. And I would just encourage anybody, any ERG, whether you’re forming a new one or trying to extend its, you know, purview, please stay in alignment and, you know, leverage the structures that exist within the HR confines.

Susan 12:20
So make your HRBP, your BFF.

Andrew 12:24
I could not have said it better.

Susan 12:26
I think it’s good advice.

JoDee 12:29
And you just alluded to one, but over your years, what concerns or problems have you seen, or maybe even just heard of connected to ERGs?

Andrew 12:44
The, the one that I will say was challenging for me, specifically, so for a while, I was our membership and chapter development chair for Wells Fargo’s Disability Connection, which meant that at the time, there were 25 affiliates across the country and globally that all needed to be managed, if you will, resources needed to be provided, etc. And in some cases, you know, there was great local connectivity. In some cases, there wasn’t. What I will say is that each one of those 25 was special, and each one of those 25 knew that they were special, and they most definitely, you know, worked together, but sometimes they were focused on completely different objectives. So I like to say that disability is one of the most diverse of diverse segments, and that would get represented within those different ERG, ERG locations. So the challenge that – one of the challenges is trying to sing with one voice, or trying to represent one perspective, boil it down into something so that everybody could feel like they were part of the same structure, the same journey, the same mission, while also being authentic to the local and/or, you know, different local perspectives, or just different perspectives. So I hope that addresses the question. But, you know, I could go into, like, specific examples where I have seen it work well, haven’t seen – I’ve seen it work not so well, but by and large, I find that the ERGs, there’s a lot of grace that’s given to one another, and so when it doesn’t work well, well, guess what? You’ve got friends that are willing to give you a pass on this one. So that’s been my experience, at least.

Susan 14:39
That’s great. My experience as well. So Andrew, are there any external resources that you’re aware of that you would point HR and business leaders toward as they map out their own ERG strategies?

Andrew 14:52
I would, and I’ll just, I will say that my experience is largely limited to disability-focused ERGs. So I know Disability:IN is a great resource, including they do have an ERG roundtable that they have not…

Susan 15:10
I didn’t realize that.

Andrew 15:11
…infrequently. Yes.

Susan 15:12
Great.

Andrew 15:13
And so I’ve, I’ve been a party to those, and there will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 to 500 like-minded business professionals where different ERGs are sharing best practices, other challenges. You know it’s once, once every quarter for about an hour, those groups will get together. But, you know, even that, it’s, it’s, again, to my earlier point of staying connected, knowing that it’s not just you within the four walls of your particular organization, but knowing that there are similar experiences being had by millions of business professionals, I really loved leveraging the Disability:IN for that.

Susan 15:54
Thank you for that.

JoDee 15:56
Well, Andrew, I asked you about the concerns or the problems around them, so now I’ll flip my game here. Can you share some success stories that you’ve seen or been a part of over the years?

Andrew 16:11
I mean, I’m going to be a little humble, if you will, which is, which is not easy for me, as Susan will tell you. Let’s just say that it’s… unequivocally, I would not be Chief Accessibility Officer at Wells Fargo were it not for ERGs. The skills that I developed as part of it is something that I’ve seen others, I’ve witnessed others developing as well, and that – my, some of my favorite examples of this, and it’s been multiple examples, it was both at JPMorgan Chase and here, is that when organizations connect the ERGs to their senior leadership, whether it be the CEO or other C-suite individuals, it’s a, it’s a challenging thing because it’s rarefied air at the top of the house, and if you can learn how to breathe in that space and connect that to what’s going on within the day-to-day experiences of employees, it’s just magical. And, and I know I had the great, great opportunity to do that here at Wells Fargo, multiple occasions. And I’ll just say that when I got here in 2013 the number of employees that identified as being a person with a disability was less than one half of 1%.

Susan 17:38
Wow.

Andrew 17:40
Yes.

Susan 17:41
Wow.

Andrew 17:41
Now 11 years later…

Susan 17:43
Yes.

Andrew 17:44
…and our most recent DE&I report, diversity equity and Inclusion report last year, we were well above 8%.

Susan 17:52
Well done. Yeah, you know a lot more people than that have some type of a disability, but they were being very, very quiet before they felt safe enough – thank you, Andrew – to come out and self-identify.

Andrew 18:05
Yeah.

Susan 18:06
That is huge. It’s interesting, so when I was at JPMorgan Chase and Andrew and I worked together on the Access Ability business resource group, Scott Powell was the first executive sponsor that we had, and he’s now the Chief Operating Officer, I think, at Wells Fargo. But of course, you’re so right, to learn how to deal with somebody that was breathing that air and asking questions that were, you know, C-suite level type of questions, it does raise our gain. So a business resource group can be a great developer of employees.

Andrew 18:38
Yeah, and let’s just say that my prior relationship with Scott Powell was very helpful, because he was the executive co-sponsor of Disability Connection when I was its enterprise president, along with Saul Van Buren, who is our head of Consumer Small and Business Banking group, and between those two being stewards of this, but also being stewards of the success of our membership…

Susan 19:08
Yes.

Andrew 19:09
…myself included, it, I think it is important to recognize that most people, even in that rarefied air, they’re people.

Susan 19:20
And they have a passion for these things, right?

Andrew 19:22
Exactly, and the ERGs are an effective way to sort of allow them to extend that passion into their day-to-day lives as well, as well as to create opportunities for coaching and learning and developing the workforce, if you will. So, yeah, you know, I’m, I could not speak more highly of Employee Resource Groups.

Susan 19:43
Yeah, I think that’s terrific, wonderful point. So finally, our last question for you, what brings you the most joy in the work that you do, Andrew?

Andrew 19:52
I will say that working at an organization of Wells Fargo’s scale, if I get it right, I don’t get it right for just a handful of people, I get it right for thousands, if not millions of people.

JoDee 20:07
Yeah.

Andrew 20:07
And with that, I, this is a dream come true in that I never would have imagined being able to have that sort of impact. And so to be in this space, it’s both humbling, but also just incredibly rewarding, and it brings me a lot of joy.

Susan 20:26
Well, you have brought us joy today, so thank you for joining us. We really, really appreciate it.

Andrew 20:32
It’s my pleasure, and I’m so glad to be a part of this. Thank you.

JoDee 20:37
Susan, we have a listener question today where they ask, “Do you think it is appropriate for HR professionals to have unprofessional social media in their personal lives?”

Susan 20:52
I think unprofessional is in the eye of the beholder, so I’m really not very comfortable judging what I think is professional and not, especially in one’s personal life. However, I do have to ask why anyone, especially in an HR profession, who actually is working in a fishbowl of a workplace, would want to have anything out there in the digital universe that may be of interest – in a good way or a bad way – to the team members that they work with. Personally, I’m not in favor of doing that. I try to keep a low profile on social media, and what I do post I think about before I hit that post button. “Well, could this ever come back to haunt me in some way?” Now, I probably have made some mistakes in the past, but I’m, I’m pretty frugal about what I’ll put out there. And I do encourage listeners who are HR professionals to realize that once you put it out there in that digital universe, it’s out there forever.

JoDee 21:50
I agree. I do post more than you do, but typically only things that I want to see other people post, right? My kids, my grandson, my… I don’t get into politics. I don’t, you know, I don’t think I do anything unprofessional, but happy to get some feedback on that if someone thinks it is, but…

Susan 22:17
I follow you, JoDee, and I enjoy following you and where you travel and your family. So I’m, I’m, I’m good with yours.

JoDee 22:23
Yeah, thank you.

Susan 22:26
All right, it’s time for in the news. I learned a new term for an age old practice. It’s called “dry promotions.” In an HR Morning article dated May 7, 2024 by Michelle McGovern, entitled “Dry Promotions: The Pros, The Cons, & 5 Ways to Handle Them,” McGovern reports there is a rising trend in giving promotions without pay raises. I was thinking when I saw the article it’s like a dry promotion might be when you are celebrating your rise in level and doing it without alcohol. That’s what I thought. But that is not what the dry promotions were about. It’s about getting that that next level job and not getting any money associated with it. So I’ve seen where, when organizations are in an early stage of development, or going through a down period, or when the economy is challenging, I’ve seen organizations offer higher level roles with the promise that when things are better they will get, the individual will get their reward, or they’ll routinely ask employees to trust them that they will do right by them when they can, or even if more money is not ever going to be on the table for taking on more responsibilities, some employees are happy with a new job title, Officer title if your industry does that, or other perks that come with the higher level job, perhaps more vacation eligibility, paid parking, or some other type of perk. A couple of the pros of doing dry promotions for employees who accept them are that they are learning new, new skills, and they are widening their internal and maybe even their external network, positioning themselves perhaps better for the future. Cons are really easy to figure out. Employees may grow to resent doing higher level work for no higher pay and may take the new skills and experience that they gain from doing it and use it to get a better role outside of the organization.

JoDee 24:24
Interesting.

Susan 24:24
Yeah, so there are definitely pros and cons. So listeners, if you are thinking about or have done or are in the middle of doing dry promotions, here’s some advice that McGovern gives for you to think about.

JoDee 24:37
Number one, be transparent. You know, we gotta be honest with people and maybe tell them why this is happening. Why are they getting a promotion without an increase in salary?

Susan 24:51
Yeah, just tell them the truth. Number two, offer something else that you can as a reward, and maybe it means you give them an extra week’s vacation. Maybe it’s, I mean, if you don’t really have any cash that you can give, maybe it is the parking spot next to the door, I don’t know, but try to give them something to recognize that they are taking on more.

JoDee 25:11
Yeah. Number three, show a path to getting increased money at some point, right? So maybe we can’t today for whatever reason, but your bonus opportunity is more significant, or we have a plan in place to give raises as of a certain day, or, you know, again, being honest and transparent about what could happen.

Susan 25:39
Yeah, so number four is offer more of what they want. So instead of you, you know, trying so hard to figure out, what more can I give them, ask them, what is it – we’re gonna, I’m asking you to take on more, and I don’t have money to give you. What would make your life better? And maybe that’s more flexibility in where, how, and when they work. Who knows? But ask the question.

JoDee 26:00
Yeah. And then number five, double down on the praise, right? Explain to them, why are they getting the promotion? How have they earned it? What, you know, what, what events, what relationships, what skills do they have that got them to this promotion?

Susan 26:23
That’s right, acknowledge it. Yeah, I love that. So JoDee, have you ever taken a dry promotion?

JoDee 26:28
I not only have never taken one, I also had never heard of them either. I will say that I recently offered someone… I didn’t not offer them a raise, but I did offer them benefits in return for a partial raise, and I just put it in their plate to say, I’ll give you some options here, and what’s more important to you? So.

Susan 27:01
Oh, I love that. So I love when employees get to make the decision and drive, you know, what the result is. I know that their skin is in the game more, so that’s very cool. I think back about my time at a very large corporation. There, we did go through tough times, and we did go through reorganizations and different things where I did need to take on more responsibility for no money. And honestly, I heard a lot of “trust me.” You know, when we can, things will get better. And you know what? They always did. So I, it was not unusual to take on more in the hopes or the expectations that at some point things would level out, rewards would come, and they always did. So I’m, I’m, if you trust your manager or, or your leader, or whoever it is, it goes a long way with me. So good luck to those of you who get offered dry promotions. Think about the pros and the cons and do what’s right for you.

JoDee 27:51
Yeah. Thanks for listening today. Please tune in next time and make it a JoyPowered® day.

Susan 27:59
Thank you.

Susan 28:01
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