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Susan 00:01
Most of the time when employees are in conflict with one another, the best role we can play is a more restrained one.

Susan 00:10
Welcome to The JoyPowered® Workspace Podcast, where we help HR and business leaders embrace joy in the workplace. I’m Susan White, owner of Susan Tinder White Consulting, an HR consulting practice. Joining me is my co-host and dear friend, JoDee Curtis, owner of Purple Ink, a large scale HR firm that I’m an executive collaborator with.

Today, we’re going to talk about mediating workplace conflict. The topic has been a popular request from our listeners. We did an episode on handling workplace conflict in 2020 that we rebroadcast in November of 2023. Both times, we got lots of feedback. In that particular episode, we talk about how conflicts in the work setting are inevitable, and if managed in a healthy way, can spark new ideas, enhance processes, and strengthen organizations. What we want to focus in on today is how we as business and HR leaders can facilitate individuals working through their conflict with each other. If we want JoyPowered® workspaces, we need everyone on our teams to have healthy ways to address conflict. There are times when employees are so crossways with each other that they can’t see a path forward. That is when we sometimes, as their manager or as their HR leader, we may need to step in. Certainly, if one of the staff members is harassing, bullying, or violating a policy or a practice that our company believes in, then we may need to dictate what that fix is and then hold individuals accountable about what we expect them to do. But most of the time, when employees are in conflict with one another, the best role we can play is a more restrained one. We could either hold them accountable to fix their problem with each other, perhaps by telling them we expect them to work respectfully together, and perhaps even offer them a framework to work through the issue themselves. Or we can be available to serve as a mediator, to help the two parties communicate with each other in a way that will be heard, open their minds and hearts to each other, and get to agreement on how they’re going to work through the issues or their relationships in general. When we do believe that issues need to be resolved by the two people engaged in a conflict without management’s involvement, our giving them some guidance on how to do it is, I think, a really smart move. You might want to consider internally publishing a conflict management approach. The University of California San Diego lists some really good suggestions on how to handle conflict in their workplace in a posting on their Blink – B, L, I, N, K – website, which is their online source of information, training, and tools for UC San Diego faculty and staff. JoDee, why don’t we go through their list one by one, just so folks have a chance to hear it and process it. Would you like to start us out?

JoDee 03:09
Yeah, so number one is to talk with the other person. That seems so obvious, yet so many times we’re talking to everybody but the other person about it.

Susan 03:21
Isn’t that the truth. And as an HR person, we have people coming to tell us all their problems with somebody else, and I think it’s really smart to say, “Have you talked to the other person? Why don’t you give that a try?”

JoDee 03:31
Right.

Susan 03:33
Number two on their list, focus on the behavior and the events, not personalities. I do think it’s really easy for us to start labeling each other as, “Oh, that person’s just a crank,” or “That person’s always griping,” or, or “That person doesn’t take time to do XYZ.” Focus on specific incidents. So as you guide your employees, say, sit down and talk about real examples of situations that went awry. Don’t talk in generalities. Go specific.

JoDee 04:00
Number three is my old Stephen Covey, listen carefully, or, as he would say, “Seek first to understand,” right? Listen to what they’re telling you. Be present. Be actively listening.

Susan 04:15
Love it. Number four, identify points of agreement and disagreement. I think that’s a really smart advice to give someone is that, as you’re talking, there’s going to be things you agree on. Go ahead and capture those. And yes, there’s going to be things you disagree on, because that’s why you’re talking. Be sure and list those one by one so then you have the opportunity as a, as a duo to go back and attack each one of those things that you disagree upon. So get organized about it.

JoDee 04:42
Number five, prioritize the areas of conflict. So as, as we get caught up in a disagreement or conflict, sometimes we start bringing up, well, 10 years ago this happened, and 20 years ago this happened, right? So focus on… You might not be able to solve all of them, but what’s the most important thing that needs to be solved immediately? And then you can get to the others as you go along.

Susan 05:11
I think that’s very wise. Number six, develop a plan to work on each conflict. So you’ve already gone through the process of enumerating where the points of disagreement are. You prioritized them. Now for each one of them, develop an approach together. Figure out, what are we going to do to solve each one of these one by one?

JoDee 05:28
And then number seven, again, sounds kind of obvious, but follow up on the plan, right? There could be nothing more frustrating for people to have talked about this conflict and made a plan for it and then not see anything happen with it. So all the parties need to be held accountable to follow through.

Susan 05:51
And then number eight, their final one, is build on your success. So be sure you celebrate wins. When people have been in conflict, they go through some real diligence at talking to each other and figuring out, following these steps, what do they agree on, what do they not, they put plans together. When you have success, make sure that the people get rewarded for taking the time and working through their conflict. Ask them to give testimonials about how they were able to work through conflicts. Figure out, what can you do to really build on the success that you have here?

When more guidance is needed, such as when we hear from employees that they have tried talking to each other, they’ve sat down with one another, and it just isn’t getting any better, or perhaps you hear from employees that they just don’t feel equipped to work through a conflict with someone, because maybe of the power dynamics, there’s going to be times where we may need to do some hands-on mediation. So we thought we’d spend a little time on this podcast sharing with you an approach that we use in case it’s one that you might want to emulate.

JoDee 06:52
So number one, as the mediator, meet individually, with each person separately, prior to the first meeting, and in that meeting, explain what mediation is and what it isn’t. You’re going to facilitate the discussion between the two of them. I’m not going to solve the problem for them. I’m not going to judge who is right or wrong, or at least at this point, I’m not going to force an outcome that I think is best. Step two of that is understand the issue from their point of view. Where is this coming from, from their perspective? And number three, probe as to why this issue is impacting them the way it is, and keep probing until the person can express why whatever is happening is causing them to react the way they are. Like, at their deepest levels, have their values been offended? Did they… Is there fear surrounding this? What’s at risk for them if they lose this argument or disagreement? We want them to be able to express the deepest why that they can when they are in the meeting itself. So you might be working through some of those issues to get to that and then talk through any concerns they have about the upcoming mediation meeting. The better prepared everyone is, the more likely the meeting will go better.

Susan 08:29
Oh, that is such a smart way to start, I think. I have to tell you, in some of the pre-meetings I’ve done where I have really probed as to, now, why is this bothering you so much, and I have found the individual hasn’t really spent a lot of time, they know they’re irritated, they know they don’t like something, but they haven’t really taken the time to get deep on it and understand why this is so impactful to them, and preparing them to come in and talk about that, it can be really eye-opening for the other party who thought it was no big deal when they realize a profound impact it’s having on the individual. Sometimes the other person’s like, “oh my gosh, I certainly don’t want to be adding more trauma to you about this,” or “I don’t want this to, to be affecting you the way it is.” And I find that when people can really speak from their heart when they get into that meeting, much more likely chances of them reaching success on their own. So thank you for, for embellishing why we need that pre-meeting. Okay, so once you’ve done your pre-meeting, step two of the approach that we do is schedule the mediation meeting in as neutral a place as possible at a time that you think is not going to be, you know, more stressful than, than need be, you know, certainly not before some deliverables are due by one or two of the parties. Make sure that you find a space and a time that is going to hopefully increase the likelihood of success. I always want to make sure that I’ve got water in the room, or coffee, or whatever the beverage of choice might be so that the parties can, you know, take a breath and take a sip and do whatever they need at any point during that meeting if things get emotional. Along those lines, I always want Kleenex in the room. Now, somebody might get the sniffles. They might sneeze. Who knows what’s going to happen. I do want to make sure I’ve got those in the room. And then I don’t think it hurts to have a flip chart and markers in case the two individuals want to start listing points of agreement or disagreement or show something visually. I just think it’s nice to have them there in case we need them.

JoDee 10:27
Yeah, I like it. Now let’s talk through the structure of the meeting itself. We want them to talk to and look at each other, and not us or the mediator, right? So seat them sitting face-to-face. No mobile devices, or at least be sure they’re turned off or they’re muted. Again, we want to focus on the behaviors and the, the events. Encourage them not to use absolutes like “always” or “never,” because typically those are rarely true, that someone’s never on time or always late for work. If anyone uses inappropriate or inflammatory language, tell them you’re going to stop them. You don’t want it to go down that path or start to turn ugly. The mediator should let them know they are not taking notes nor recording the session, and ask for that active or empathetic listening. Right? Stay present as the other is speaking and truly listen to understand and not to respond.

Susan 11:43
Yeah, I’ll jump in right there, JoDee. I think it is important to go through these norms so that everybody understands kind of the rules of the road as we start this engagement. But I also like to say, listen, are there anything – Is there any other rule or norm or agreement that we want to make before we get into dialogue? And I think it’s important so that both parties, if there’s something that’s really important to them, they get it on the table. And I have had people say – one time, specifically, a gentleman said, listen, I know that you don’t want us to have any mobile devices or anything here. I really do want to take notes as we do this. It’s important for me, because I don’t – and I don’t write very well, so I’d like to have my computer up. I won’t, I promise you, I’m not looking at anything, you know, any emails or anything like that. But I want to be able to take notes, because that’s how I process. And the other – I said, you know, I asked the other person, how do you feel about that? And they said, I’m fine with that. I never knew that was a thing for you, but please do it. It was, I think it really was respectful. It was respectfully asked and respectfully received. And I think that it really helped toward moving toward the success of that dialogue.

JoDee 12:50
Yeah, nice. I think some of this, you know, I think setting these ground rules or having this structure shows the serious nature of the issue, too, right? To just, like, pop in a conference room and start talking, it may just be making it seem too casual when it’s really an important issue.

Susan 13:15
Good point.

JoDee 13:16
Yeah. Give each party about five to seven minutes to share their perspective on how they got there. Each party then maybe has two to three minutes to ask questions of the other to deepen their understanding of what the other person had shared or what questions.

Susan 13:35
I love that. Five to seven minutes for each of them to tell their perspective, and then the other person getting a chance to ask questions, right? Not to argue it, but to really make sure they understand it. I think that setting that tone, that’s what we’re about. We’re about really hearing each other. I will tell you, and this – you may have done the same thing. There are times where I say you’re each gonna have five to seven minutes, and the individual, one of the individuals at seven minutes just is not done. They just aren’t done. They’re so deep into it. Then I ask the other person, I say, how do you feel about, you know, obviously Rita isn’t finished here. What if we set the reset the timer for another three? Would you be comfortable for that? And then the partner, very respectfully, well, sure, yes, of course. And then Rita understands she’s got three minutes to wrap it up. So I will do an extension if the person wants it and the other person agrees to it.

JoDee 14:22
Yeah, nice. Then maybe separate the parties. Certain parts of the room, or just giving them their own space to fill out a piece of paper with three different sections: what I would like my colleague to start doing regarding this behavior or situation, what I would like my colleague to stop doing, and what I would like my colleague to continue doing. I’m sure many of you have heard of this start, stop, continue process, but to incorporate it in this type of meeting, I think can be really powerful, and you might be surprised at some of the simple answers that come from that, or maybe things you hadn’t even thought about that someone would be asking for. So.

Susan 15:13
Totally. I also find the continue is just so affirming to each party, because obviously they’re doing something the other person wants them to keep doing. And I love ending on that, because I really do think that person who has been told by this person they’re in an argument with or disagreement with wants them to keep doing something… It just, it’s a feel good, feel good moment.

JoDee 15:33
Yeah, yeah. Then bring them back together again and walk through what each one of them has written and what they would like from the other. They can then share what they are willing to do and or what they cannot do or won’t do and why. You can jot down the commitments made of things that will be started or stopped or continued, and even add target dates if they’re not immediate, which some of them might be, like, I’ll stop doing this today, right? But maybe we need a transition period of time, too, for the cannots or won’t do’s. Ask them as a pair to brainstorm other possible courses of actions. If the want or need is still important to the person who wrote it, we find that usually, during this give and take, that often, items tend to fall off or be de-prioritized. Like, well, maybe I don’t have to go to that extreme, or, you know, I’m not going to say I won’t ever do that again, but I really want to limit my times, whatever that might be.

Susan 16:45
That’s very fair. I was gonna say I’ve had people who, they ask for something that they know is not possible.

JoDee 16:50
Yeah,

Susan 16:50
“I want you to start doing whatever,” and they know they’re going to get a no. And I think that when they, when the person says, “No, here’s why I can’t do it,” the other person’s like, “I get it. I just, I just wanted you to know why that was important, that was important to me, but I totally get it.” So it really is… I do see at this stage a lot of give and take and compromise, and people at this point usually are really hearing each other. And so I do, I think that whole – your idea that things become not important anymore or they deprioritize absolutely does happen in reality.

JoDee 17:19
Yeah, yeah. And then conclude the meeting with three things. One, a promise that the mediator will send them the agreed upon list of commitments. Number two, give them an opportunity to thank each other for the discussion, even if, you know, maybe they don’t like all the answers or the approaches that need to be taken, it can be a thank you for your time, thank you for listening, thank you for being here, thank you for understanding, right? And then number three, encourage them to establish a check-in date within the next couple of weeks to assess how things are going. Is it getting better? Did I over-promise? Did they over-promise? You know, where are we?

Susan 18:07
And you know, I would just add the mediator doesn’t necessarily have to come to that follow on meeting. If the parties want the mediator there, great. But if they don’t, that’s fine. The two of them need to manage their relationship moving forward, and in a lot of ways, it’s healthy if their check-in does not include you.

JoDee 18:22
I agree, yeah.

Susan 18:24
You know, our experience is that this approach works most of the time. When it doesn’t, the individuals usually are just too locked in to their way of thinking, that they’re right and that the other person’s wrong and there is – they’re not open to give or take at all. They are so deeply rooted in their thinking that they’re not, they’re not open to compromising or collaborating. And in those cases, there’s no amount of mediation that’s going to help them move forward. In those cases, you as the business leader, or perhaps the HR leader here, you have to decide if this conflict is affecting your culture to a degree, or your customers to a degree, or the organization’s productivity or profitability to the point that you do need to intervene and take more draconian action. Maybe these two people just can’t work together anymore. Maybe leadership needs to decide that one person is right and the other is wrong, or some other resolution to end the conflict once it’s realized that this is just not a healthy conflict, they’re not going to resolve it, and we can’t live with it. Listeners, we would love to hear from you more on this topic. My guess is that as you listen to this today, wherever, whenever this day is, that you’re probably in the middle of some conflict, or you’re watching some conflict unravel. Please. What techniques are you using when you mediate employee conflicts, or other ways that you have for resolving workplace issues? We’d love to hear them. We think it’s important for you to figure out how to handle conflict, to keep it a JoyPowered® workspace.

JoDee 19:53
Right.

Susan 19:54
There are a couple of other resources you may want to tap into that’s been offered by SHRM. We’ll put them in our show notes, as well.

JoDee 20:01
This first one, you have to be a SHRM member to access it, Managing Workplace Conflict Toolkit. So the easiest way to do it is go to our show notes or go to SHRM – S, H, R, M – dot org and then search “managing conflict toolkit.” Or the other one, which just became available in August 2024 and is available to anyone, is called Civility at Work 2024 Index Research, so you do not have to be a SHRM member to access that.

Susan 20:41
That’s great. I’ve looked at it, and I think it’s really good. So listeners, I hope you do take a, take a look at it as well.

JoDee 20:47
Yeah.

Susan 20:48
So you know, JoDee, I’d just love your perspective. I mean, you have worked so many places, you have led so many teams. Any advice that you might have on managing conflict in the workplace that, that our approach hasn’t delved into? Any other advice that you have for listeners?

JoDee 21:04
Yeah, well, one thing, I just think it’s important, or you – our listeners might have been thinking about as we talked about that word “mediator,” right, and who that needs to be. I mean, there are people, some attorneys, especially, who are certified as a mediator. This could be you as an HR person or a business leader, or just someone who’s a bit impartial to the conflict itself. But I think having a defined process, right, can make it significantly easier and maybe to bring in different people. I mean, not just – you know, you want it to be someone the people immediately involved in the conflict to have some respect for or trust that the conversation won’t be repeated or taken out of context, but it can be different people in your organization, or you can hire a consultant like us to come in and do this as well, too.

Susan 22:12
Yeah, that makes good sense. I have been hired by several firms to come in and mediate some conflict, and I have to tell you that I think it does raise the confidence level of the parties that it’s somebody objective, who’s not, who’s no skin in the game about where this lands. They care that it’s a good process, but we don’t have, you know, we’re not inside the company. We don’t have to watch them every day, every hour. There’s enough anonymity around it. So, yeah, very, very interesting. Well, thank you.

JoDee 22:41
Yeah. And Susan, we have a listener question today. This one actually came from one of your clients. So here was the question. “I’m an HR business partner who supports a retailer who has a number of outlets. In one particular store, there is an assistant manager who manages up to higher management and other department heads very well, but not with his direct manager – who, quite honestly, is a bit scared of him – and his staff members. The manager has tried to voice concerns about him, but upper management and my HR leadership think it is the store manager who just feels threatened by him and that the staff doesn’t like being expected to perform well. I see it very differently, as I have spoken to many on the staff as well as the manager, and I think there is a pattern of manipulation and bad behavior by the assistant manager, unless, of course, they are all in cahoots with each other and making up stories to try and get rid of this assistant manager. And when I meet with the assistant manager he is perfectly nice and can explain away each incident I have questioned him about. In my gut, I think he’s trying to win me over and manipulate me too. I know his manager and staff fear that he will make their lives even more miserable if they keep complaining to me about condescending remarks he makes, verbal jabs he takes at people, periodically threatening their jobs, and telling them he is well liked at the top and they are the problem, not him.” Ugh.

Susan 24:35
Yeah, I gotta tell you, I don’t like this guy already. No, don’t rush to judgment. I always say, don’t rush to judgment. I just rushed to judgment. You know, we as HR business partners, we do not live in the work environment. We’re not living in that store. It’s hard for us ever to be 100% sure who are the truth tellers. I think that’s true of any employee relations issue we get embroiled in. You know, everyone has their own perspective, and we walk in and we try to get to the truth. But do we ever 100% get there? I don’t know. I do think that we should try to go deeper on this. And this is the advice that I gave my client. I would suggest doing one of these, or one or more of these ideas. First of all, maybe have someone other than you, because right now, your, your HR leadership thinks that you have a bias toward the store employees and the current manager and against the assistant manager. So have someone other than you perhaps conduct a climate assessment, which is when you go into an organization and you meet with all the employees, you ask them how things are going, what, what keeps you here, kind of doing a stay interview, anything in the workplace that makes you uncomfortable, so just really doing a climate assessment. Perhaps someone else coming in, they can read the room differently. They can come back with data. Your leadership hears it from someone other than you. It’s just a thought. The second thing is, I would definitely pull my exit interview data. Has there been turnover at this particular store? My guess, probably, in retail there has been. Has anyone cited specifics about the assistant manager? People that are, that when they were leaving, mentioned him? I would pull employee engagement survey data. You know, what are people saying in your annual pulse, pulse, pulse checks on how things are going in that climate? I would look at any store video. I’m assuming, being a retail outlet, you’ve got some video. Can you see any video that aligns with any of the incidents that are being reported to you, where he is allegedly, you know, putting, making people feel bad, making condescending remarks. Can I watch any human interaction happening in that store between the assistant manager and anyone else? I would probably also ask my leadership, is there a chance we could temporarily, temporarily transfer a respected staff member into that store to get their perspective on the culture? Is there any type of job rotation where we could move somebody, we’d have a business reason that we could put around it, to put somebody else in that store for a period of time so they can actually get the feel? Yeah, I think, I think it’s worth trying. And then finally, I think I have to say that if you cannot paint any clearer of a picture for leadership, you may have to just eventually accept that you’ve done all that you can and watch, you know, if there’s going to be fallout, watch it happen. And I do think that at the end of the day, HR business partners, we do the very best we can. We give the advice, best advice we can, we gather the best data we can. And then sometimes we have to say, all right, they’re not listening to me, or they’re not seeing it the way I see it. Maybe I’m wrong. Let’s see what happens. So that’s, that’s my two cents on it. That’s what I gave my client. I’m waiting to hear what happens.

JoDee 27:47
Yes, let us know. Great advice.

Susan 27:53
All right, it’s time for in the news. There’s an article in SHRM’s HR quarterly summer 2024 magazine entitled “Recruiting Challenges Continue.” In this article, SHRM research results that were shared confirm what we have been discussing in a number of our JoyPowered® Workspace Podcast episodes. The more flexible employers are with where and when their staff members work, the easier it is to hire and retain employees. In fact, this most recent SHRM survey found that 83% of organizations operating in person report having hiring difficulties. So those shops that say everyone has to be on the premises all the time, 83% of them say it’s very hard to hire. JoDee, why don’t you do our next one?

JoDee 28:41
Compared to 76% of organizations using a hybrid approach report hiring difficulties. So it’s going down, down 7%.

Susan 28:53
Yeah. And then compare that to only 43% of organizations with fully remote workforces report having hiring difficulties. That’s still almost half. So we know that this is a difficult labor market to really recruit the talent you need, but less than half, once you have that flexibility, the mobility, answered, you’re going to have an easier time finding staff. Although we may sound like a broken record on our encouraging flexibility, many organizations have become tone deaf to employees on this topic, and recruiting and retention are going to continue to be challenges for them. So I think it’s time to share that data, HR leaders, business leaders, with your executive team that we can – this is something tangible that we can be doing to help make our recruiting of talent easier, right?

JoDee 29:44
Well, thanks for listening today. Please tune in next time and make it a JoyPowered® day.

Susan 29:52
Thank you. If you liked the show, please tell a few friends about us and let us know what you thought by leaving us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you’re listening right now. Become a JoyPowered® member to get extras like early access to episodes, video versions of the episodes, bonus episodes, and even more. Learn more at patreon.com/joypowered. You spell Patreon P, A, T, R, E, O, N, so it’s patreon.com/joypowered. You can find more information on our podcast, books, blogs, and more at getjoypowered.com. We’re @joypowered on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Facebook, and you can email us via joypowered@gmail.com. Make it a JoyPowered® day.