Click here for this episode’s show notes.

This transcript was created using an automated transcription service and may contain errors.

Howie 00:01
Wouldn’t it be cool if we could create a controlled ecosystem with curated content, basically other people’s content, that we could make available, easily available to people that were in need?

JoDee 00:15
Welcome to The JoyPowered® Workspace Podcast, where we help HR and business leaders embrace joy in the workplace. I’m JoDee Curtis, owner of Purple Ink, an HR consulting and talent development firm, and with me is my dear friend and co-host, Susan White, owner of Susan Tinder White Consulting, also an HR consulting practice.

JoDee 00:42
Our topic today is job seeking meets mental well-being. According to the World Health Organization, back in 2019, 970 million people, or one out of every eight people around the world, were living with a mental disorder, with anxiety and depressive disorders the most common. Now, in 2020 the number of people living with anxiety and depressive disorders rose significantly because of the Covid-19 pandemic.

Susan 01:21
Makes sense.

JoDee 01:22
I don’t have any more current information since then, but I’m gonna guess it hasn’t decreased.

Susan 01:29
No, right.

JoDee 01:31
Yeah, initial estimates show a 26 and 28% increase, respectively, for anxiety and major depressive disorders in just one year. While effective prevention and treatment options exist, most people with mental disorders do not have access to effective care. Many people also experience stigma, discrimination, and violations of human rights. Seeking a job while dealing with mental health challenges can be a uniquely daunting experience. The process of job searching itself can be stressful, and combined with the additional weight of mental health struggles, it may feel overwhelming. Of course, rejections, lack of responses, and uncomfortable or disorganized interview processes don’t help either. So it’s important for all job candidates to approach a new job journey with self-compassion and strategic planning. I know, easier said than done. Right? Acknowledging your mental health needs and seeking professional support during this time could be vital in managing stress and maintaining balance throughout the job search process, and one crucial aspect to consider is how and when to disclose your mental health challenges to potential employers, if at all. While there is no obligation to disclose this information, understanding your rights and knowing when it might be beneficial to discuss accommodations can be empowering. Focusing on jobs that align with your strengths and interests can also play a significant role in mitigating stress. Look for roles that offer flexibility, supportive work environments, and tasks that align with your capabilities and passions. Additionally, self care should be a priority during this time. Setting realistic goals, taking breaks, engaging in activities that bolster your well-being can help maintain your resilience. Lean on your support system, whether that’s friends, family, or mental health professionals, for encouragement and advice, and remember the job search is a process, and it’s okay to take it, to take it one step at a time. Balancing job searching with mental health care is not only a strategic approach, but also a necessary one to ensure that you are moving forward toward a role that supports your overall well-being.

Susan 04:32
You know, I wish I’d had this episode under our belt when I was doing career coaching, because I did career coaching as part of my HR consulting practice for, gosh, four or five years. And I, I knew as I was dealing with individuals looking for work that they were under incredible stress. There was, you know, they’re, they’re battling all the emotions about having left their old job, sometimes not their choice. Most of the time not their choice, in fact, because I was dealing with mostly laid off people, and I – They were so anxious many times and, and I can remember talking to folks and saying, listen, I want you to think about this job search as your new job. I want you to to say, “I’m going to do this Monday through Friday, but I’m taking weekends off.” You can’t – if you keep every day pounding away by, you know, networking and by looking at Indeed and responding to ads and things, if you do that day and night and don’t set some boundaries for yourself, this is going to wear you down fast. So I often said, every single day, figure out one joyful thing you’re going to do and schedule it, if it means a golf, if it means lunch with a girlfriend or whatever it is, every day something. And I also said, if you’re a person who likes exercise every single day, something you’re going to do, and then at five o’clock, 4:30, whatever is going to be your quitting time, you set that boundary, because this can, can be overwhelming. But I’ll tell you what, if I had had this episode, I think I would have been better at doing this, because the advice you just gave is so powerful. So thank you for that. So let’s think about it from the employer perspective as well, not just from the job seeker. You know, what could and should we be doing? We typically do not know when a job candidate is dealing with some mental health struggles, but we should be sensitive to all job candidates by implementing inclusive hiring practices. For instance, we might offer flexible interview scheduling to accommodate candidates who may need extra time or have specific needs. Additionally, providing clear and supportive communication about the interview process every step of the way and what they can expect after they talk to us, or each step of the way, I think can really help reduce anyone’s anxiety. Employers can also ensure that job descriptions are free from unnecessary stressors by focusing on essential skills and qualifications rather than being overly demanding. If I see another job description looking for a rock star, I think I’ll throw up, right? Not everybody’s a rock star. Most of us are good, strong performers, right? Let’s not put extra stress. Training hiring managers to recognize and accommodate mental health needs without bias is another key step. By creating a welcoming and understanding recruitment process, employers can better support all candidates.

JoDee 07:26
Our guest today is Howie Gerver. Howie is the founder and president of three different organizations, mindbridge.com, The Adam Project, and HR Best Practices. He is a former consultant for PriceWaterhouse and Mercer HR Consulting and has spent the majority of his time in the benefits space. Howie is a mental health champion, and today’s conversation will center on his work at The Adam Project, a curated directory of free mental well-being resources and free mental health providers. Howie, thank you so much for joining us today. We’re excited to talk to you.

Howie 08:12
I’m excited to be here. Thank you for giving me this great opportunity to speak with your listeners.

JoDee 08:18
Yes, thank you. So tell us, why did you start The Adam Project?

Howie 08:24
Well, I’m going to get the sad part over with quickly. So my beautiful 32 year old son passed away a little over three years ago. I just got goosebumps. I can’t believe it’s been three years and I still have goosebumps when I think about that, you know, overwhelming, but anyway, so naturally, as a loving dad, I grieved for quite a long time – continue to grieve, and at the time I was about 60, I said, you know, how much grieving can I do every day? I’d get lost in the grief. And I woke up and I said, What can I do? You know, how can I give back to society and share with society what, some of the things that I’ve learned along – Adam had a 17-year journey, a mental health journey, ups and downs through over the years of all kinds of diagnoses and treatments, etc. So I said, What can I do to give back? And I kind of stepped back. I looked at the market, and at the time, there were about 20,000 mental health point solutions that were out there. I was like, whoa, that’s a lot, right? What can I – and, and I thought about my own experiences and Adam’s experiences and other people’s experiences looking for content. And as you know, you go into a search engine and you get lost in the search engine, you’re like, hey, this is a cool place, I’m down this rabbit hole, but I have no idea how I got here, and I didn’t find the content I was looking for. I said, Wouldn’t it be cool if we could create a controlled ecosystem with curated content, basically other people’s content, that we could make available, easily available to people that were in need, whether it be directly or indirectly, friends, family, colleagues, neighbors, whomever, right, siblings, parents, grandparents, and make, make the information easily discoverable and, and very practical at the same time. So that’s the short version of why, you know, I started this, and it’s interesting to see where it’s going. There’s all kinds of tentacles, right? Because, as everybody knows, there’s a mental health crisis of epic proportions, and it’s crazy. In spite of 20,000 point solutions and all these people getting help, the market seems to be getting bigger and bigger, right? And every day, you pick up the paper and you hear a story. If you think about, like, Kevin Bacon, six degrees of separation. You know, back when I was growing up in my teens, 50 years ago, 40 years ago, if you heard about it, it was rare, and it was behind closed doors. Today, it’s now, like, one degree of separation. Everybody knows somebody, and they’re shouting it from the rooftops. So I’m thinking, like, perhaps the more it gets normalized and the more it gets destigmatized, that the more people raise their hand and say, hey, you know what? Maybe I do have a need, right? So anyway. Did I answer your question?

JoDee 08:58
Yeah.

Howie 09:23
It’s a lot to discuss.

JoDee 11:47
Thank you for sharing, being so vulnerable with us, but also for doing this, right, for creating this space for people.

Susan 11:56
Absolutely.

Howie 11:57
There’s an expression that goes something like, you want to leave the campsite in a better condition than the way you found it. And I’m not blessed with being a physician or a psychologist or a social worker or clinician of any type. I said, hey, if we could make this information readily accessible and available, that would be great. People will still, “How do you make money?” Like, no, this is not about making money. This is about making, helping make the world a better place in the small way that I can. And, you know, I don’t need, I don’t have any venture capitalists or investors breathing down my neck saying “It must have more, must have more.” It’s like, from my perspective, if we can help one person take the sting or reduce the sting out of their journey, wherever it may be, and there’s so many stressors in life today, that I will feel fulfilled. So that, that’s the ROI that I’m looking for.

Susan 12:54
Oh, that is terrific and humbling, and I thank you too. Howie, can you walk us through how theadamproject.org, helps job seekers? What are some of the tactical, practical ways that they could help people through the job search with sound mental health?

Howie 13:12
Sure. Well, again, going back to my college days, right, a long time ago, 40 plus years ago. I remember at the time, you know, I didn’t think of mental health, but it did – the recruiting process did drive you a little bananas, right? And I remember flying to JP Morgan at their training program. Well, long story short, it was an eight month cycle, right, from the point in time I reached out to them for the interviews to, like, finally got the job offer, and they spelled my name wrong. I was like, I’m not working for a company like this. They can’t even spell my name right. Like, there’s not a lot of, you know, this is not a complicated name here, you know, but the way I dealt with it back then, 40 years ago plus, I would call the recruiter or the hiring manager every Friday, whether I got through or not, and I would leave a message, hey, let me tell you about the class that I’m taking and, and what I learned and how it can apply to that program and blah, blah, blah, right? So that was my own way of, like, trying to make it a little less crazy of a process. Today, there are, you know, whether it be using search tools like Google or using AI tools like ChatGPT, one of my favorites is you.com, which is pretty cool. And even on The Adam Project, we have AI where you can click on a little coin at the bottom right and that invokes a prompt, and you could type in whatever it is that you’re looking for. So we have, I apologize for the shameless self-promotion here, but we have, but, but we have, you know, content related to that. So people can either go into the search bar at the top and type in a search term, or if they’re more comfortable with simply clicking on a filter, under persona, they can click on job seeker, unemployed, burnt out, stressed at work, if you will, and that will serve up various resources to the visitor. Or, again, they can go into the AI prompt and simply type in what they’re looking for. Because people don’t always know. They don’t always, they don’t necessarily feel that they fit into a filter box, like, this is me, but they can describe, like, I’m a frustrated job seeker. I’ve got anxiety, you know, because I’m depressed, because I don’t have a job or don’t have income. I’ve got anxiety about finding a job and keeping the job. They could simply type that into the prompt and, and then in our side, The Adam Project, it will, it will serve up the three most relevant resources. And you can even specify by I want an article, I want a podcast, I want a video, and it will tee that up. And then you can naturally refine that prompt.

Susan 16:17
Can I ask you, though, did you get the job offer from JP Morgan?

Howie 16:22
I actually, funny story. Well, this, this part’s not a funny story. My dad passed away when I was in college. Yeah, which was, which really was tragic on so many levels, left my mother a young widow at 44, two kids in college, and, and, but, but she was very supportive. She was a great cheerleader. Just really supportive of her kids. And anyway, what happened? Oh yeah, so I was home that weekend from school, and she was making meatballs. I’ll never forget this. And you know, naturally meat sauce, like a Sunday sauce, that it gets a splatter everywhere, right?

Susan 17:05
Sure.

Howie 17:05
So, so the mailman comes, or the post person comes, and sure enough, there it is, ta da. It’s, like, in May, you know, eight months later, there’s a letter addressed to Mr. Howard Gerber. Right? And I’m Howie Gerver. And I’m like, my mother’s like, “Oh, what came in the mail?” I said, “Garbage,” and she goes, “Oh, what do you mean?” I said, “Well, something from the Morgan Bank with JP Morgan, but they spelled my name wrong, so it must be a rejection.” I threw – and I threw it out, meat sauce stuff, so it had, like, red, like, meat sauce all over. And it’s a “We are pleased to offer you…” blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, of course, naturally, you know, there was a small earthquake in northern New Jersey because we were jumping up, you know. But the irony is, and for anyone that’s in the recruiting business, let this be a small lesson – not that the Morgan Bank actually missed me – around a month before, actually, like, two weeks before, I – no, actually, that’s true, a month before I’d contacted PriceWaterhouse before it became PwC for their consultant training program. And within two weeks, they were like, come on in for an interview, and the whole process, four weeks, end to end.

Susan 18:26
Wow.

Howie 18:26
They gave me an offer. So I called up the Morgan Bank, and I said, sorry. Pricewaterhouse gave me an offer within four weeks. You guys took eight months. I think they want – and they got my name right. I think they want me more than you want me. So even though they the salary was about 30% less…

Susan 18:44
You know what? It’s just funny.

Howie 18:46
Yes, I got the job. No, I didn’t take it.

Susan 18:49
All right, fair enough. Fair enough.

Howie 18:50
And if I took it, who knows? Maybe I wouldn’t be here today. Who knows, right? You never know.

Susan 18:54
Never know.

Howie 18:55
Yeah, yeah.

Susan 18:57
I was in recruiting at JPMorgan Chase 42 years ago.

Howie 18:59
No you were not!

Susan 19:00
I was and I ended up spending 35 years there, but I think it’s a great story.

JoDee 19:04
Howie, I think, you know, it might be the first step for a job seeker to even recognize that they might need some resources or assistance going through the interviewing process. But what about when they realize they do need some extra help? Can they find free mental health providers out there to help them?

Howie 19:28
Sure. I’d suggest two different ways. First is, and if they’re on the fence about, “Do I need help or not?” on The Adam Project, if you go to free resources, there’s a mental – a series of tests that, assessments that people can take by Mental Health America, and if you think you could be depressed or you might have anxiety, you could take that test. It’s all confidential. No information is shared. And it just gives you, hey, people like you that answer questions this way sound like they could be depressed or stressed, you know, etc. But more practically, to your point, if you go to the free provider tab in The Adam Project, you could enter your zip code and we have, we have free providers, anywhere from 20 to 50 free providers in every state. We scoured the internet to find this, and it really is amazing. And then you can even filter it down by facility type. And suppose you said, “You know what, I want to dip my toe in the water. I just want a coach that I could text or talk to.” You could specify that, and you type in – you guys are in Indianapolis, type in Indianapolis, and I did it earlier this morning and an organization called NAMI, the National Association of Mental Illness, popped. And sure enough, it gives you the phone number, and you could call them and talk to them for free, for free, right? And we have that everywhere in the country, so, and we’re going to be linking the mental health condition or type with the provider type. So it’ll be the only time that we’ll ask someone for their zip code, and it says, “Would you like to be connected with three different providers in your area? Please, if so, please provide your zip code,” and it’ll take the exact condition that they’re seeking and marry it up with the local providers. Poof, done.

Susan 21:22
Yeah.

Howie 21:22
And it’s all for free. All for free.

Susan 21:25
I love it. That’s my price point. That’s wonderful. So what advice do you have for employers that might be listening today? How can they help job seekers through the interview process?

Howie 21:37
Well, that’s a little outside of my space. Naturally, my answer will be much shorter than the others. Uh, I’m a little biased. I would say, Make theadamproject.org available to their candidates, and even maybe people that were terminated recently or left recently, because, I mean, there’s a lot of stress and, yeah, and depression, anxiety, you know, worries of all kinds there, and anything that, I mean, it’s, again, it’s a free URL. It doesn’t get easier than that, right? And you’re helping people, right, rather than – because, particularly when you’re on your own, you don’t, you’re not necessarily thinking about how to get free help, is that even an option. It’s here. It’s here. We’ve built a nice site, and we want people to use it, right, to help themselves.

JoDee 22:30
And we’ve been talking specifically about the job seeking process. But you know, after they’re hired, especially when they’re new, the workplace can continue to be challenging for them. For example, is maybe even if they see colleagues they’re working with who are being terminated or laid off of certain projects. That might be another time where employees might be looking for assistance or find extra stress or depression in their lives.

Howie 23:05
No, absolutely. So again, same, same response to their previous question. But in addition, I would add in, like, if I were king for a day and I was an HR or line manager at any of these organizations, it’d be nice to put communities together or support groups together, really, to help, right? And not only is it the right thing, in my humble opinion, to do by mankind, right, but it’s also good for the brand, so to speak, right? So, yeah, it goes a long way.

Susan 23:39
Is The Adam Project looking for volunteers, or what could the listener do that really feels motivated to see what they could do to get, get involved?

Howie 23:48
Oh, I love that question. I mean, I love the other questions too. But everything that we’ve done has been curated by volunteers, which is totally awesome, with the exception of some technology licensing fees and things like that. So yeah, we – anything from content curators, product managers, but when I say a content curator would be someone that would find a resource that we could include on the on the site, a product manager, we don’t have that person now, but, or people now, but wouldn’t it be cool to have a set of content dedicated specifically to this and to market this, and maybe put a social media program in place and market it to employers so they’re in a habit to give it to their employees, right? So we could people that have social media skills. Again, we have a great product, how to raise the awareness of it, as you know, it is all kinds of initiatives that you could do around building the brand and supporting the brand, etc. Yeah, yeah. And I’m open to any other idea that somebody has. If somebody says, you know, I love the intersection of mental health and, and recruitment or talent management, you know, bring, bring us your ideas. I mean, I’m open, right, as long as it’s G – only requirements are it’s G-rated and it’s ethical, legal, minor things like that.

JoDee 25:19
And Howie, how can people reach out to you or best connect with The Adam Project?

Howie 25:27
The email, the general email for The Adam Project is hello – like, “hello!” – at the – T, H, E, -Adam – A, D, A, M – project dot org, so that would be the best way to contact us.

JoDee 25:43
Alright.

Howie 25:44
Yeah.

JoDee 25:44
Thank you so much for joining us today and for sharing this information for others, employers, employees, candidates who might be able to use this site as resources for them.

Howie 25:57
This is awesome. You guys are great. I can’t thank you enough for pulling this together. And I’m excited. And stay on the lookout, by the way, I should say this, you guys were the catalysts for us to create a booklet, if you will, for job seekers that look at the mental health journey along all the entire spectrum, and it shows people how to find content, because not everybody’s a search expert, right, even though we try to make it easy by using the search bar or the filter or the AI, so including examples in there as well, like, here are popular keywords to use if you want to do a job, so you know, if you look, like, like “job search” or “unemployment blues” or “fired” or “laid off,” and then here are some AI prompts that you could use to find the resources that you need. So anyone that wants one of those, feel free to email us again at hello at theadamproject.org and we will send you the booklet within a week.

Susan 26:59
So Howie, thank, thank you for everything you’re doing out there. I just know that I’m really hopeful that people listening today will tap into the resource, because I think it’s so needed, and thank you for for spearheading it.

Howie 27:12
Least I can do. Yeah, thanks guys, great meeting you.

Susan 27:16
JoDee, we have a listener question that came from a listener in one of our March 2024 podcasts. Please remember listeners, we welcome questions anytime. Here’s the question. “Do I stay in my same organization, or do I keep moving to new companies every two years or so to promote my full potential?”

JoDee 27:36
Yes, I love this question. I’m not sure I have the right answer to it, but I can tell you, I, you know, I would never recommend someone specifically move to a new company to get promoted to their full potential. But I’ve seen it happen. I’ve seen it happen to myself, right? That suddenly the new shiny penny comes in and gets a big raise or a sign on bonus or something, and it seems like an easier path to do that, but I also recommend that you consider, what are your – What is your potential in your current organization? And that might not be, you might not see a direct career path of promotions. Or maybe you’re in an HR department, for example, where you’re the HR director, and there’s the CHRO who just started and you think going to be around for a long time, are there other ways you can still grow and take on different projects and take on different learnings or specialties that might not be a new title or a promotion, but can still advance your knowledge and experience in the organization? And I would just be sure you talk to someone about that before starting to look outside. I think so many times people make the assumption that they have to leave in order to be promoted. And I’ve talked to many people, not just in HR, but in many careers, who really understand their value to an organization when they tell them they’re leaving, right? People come out of the woodwork, like, “Don’t leave. I value you. You’re great, you’re awesome. Why are you leaving?” You know, so have those conversations with a wide array, or maybe there’s even a different opportunity for you outside your specific expertise right now.

Susan 29:56
I think that is wonderful advice, and I have to tell you, I’m glad you took that question, because I worked at the same company for 35 years. Now, I did a lot of different things, but I did not know how to say the words “I” and “quit” in the same sentence. Didn’t know how to do it. So I do have a lot of admiration for people who, when the next shiny thing comes along, that they, you know what, they take the risk and they go and they keep learning. So I don’t know if there’s any magic about when you leave. I think it’s about when you see an opportunity where you think you can really grow.

JoDee 30:26
Yeah.

Susan 30:27
I applaud people who do it. So.

JoDee 30:29
Yeah. Next is our in the news. A research report published in May of 2024 by the Employee Benefit Research Institute finds that among working Americans ages 55 or older, the labor force is aging. Well, that’s no big surprise to any, but the research found that workers ages 65 or older make up a larger portion of those age 55 or older workforce than they did in 2000. The percentages of those ages 65 and older increased from 23% of the age 55 and older workforce to 29.5% in 2023.

Susan 31:19
Wow.

JoDee 31:19
That happened while the labor force participation rates of those ages 55 to 64 surpassed pre-pandemic levels while the labor force participation rates of those ages 65 or older did not. Now, I know that was a lot of numbers and statistics, but think of it this way. The movement of the baby boom generation out of the age groups younger than 65 has made the composition of the older workers even older. At the same time, the older workforce is becoming more diverse as a smaller share of white Americans comprise that 55 and older population. These are important considerations for employers to understand as older workers and a more diverse workforce call for additional or new answers to the design of your employee benefit plans. They’re looking for different types of benefits. Now, again, this is no surprise to any of us that our workforce is aging, and we know there are less people in the younger generations that the old – than the older ones. But it does tell us a few things. Although the number of baby boomers retiring is increasing every day, and we keep hearing about that, note that they are still a significant part of our workforce, so our tendency may to be to dismiss those older workers or even candidates, too, right, thinking, “Ah, they’re all retiring right now,” but there still is a significant portion in the workforce. Well, thanks for listening today. Please tune in next time and make it a JoyPowered® day.

Susan 33:21
Thank you. If you liked the show, please tell a few friends about us and let us know what you thought by leaving us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you’re listening right now. Become a JoyPowered® member to get extras like early access to episodes, video versions of the episodes, bonus episodes, and even more. Learn more at patreon.com/joypowered. You spell Patreon, P, A, T, R, E, O, N, so it’s patreon.com/joypowered. You can find more information on our podcast, books, blogs, and more at getjoypowered.com. We’re @JoyPowered on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Facebook, and you can email us via joypowered@gmail.com. Make it a JoyPowered® day.