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MeChelle 00:01
Really listen. What are people saying? More importantly, what are people not saying?

Susan 00:10
Welcome to The JoyPowered® Workspace Podcast, where we help HR and business leaders embrace joy in the workplace. I’m Susan White, owner of Susan Tinder White Consulting, an HR consulting practice. Joining me is my co-host and dear friend, JoDee Curtis, owner of Purple Ink, a large scale HR firm that I’m an executive collaborator with.

Susan 00:31
We launched an episode on January 16, 2023 entitled “Toxic Workplaces,” which garnered lots of good feedback. At that time, we spoke with Jesse Gomez of the Williamsburg Therapy Group. If you haven’t taken a listen, we encourage you to go back and listen to it. Over the couple of years since we recorded that episode, we have not seen toxicity going down at work, and instead, we continue to hear more and more from employees that either have left bad work environments because of toxic work environments, or they are thinking about leaving them. In order to get a fresh perspective on this important topic, we have invited a guest to discuss with us how we can recognize toxicity when it surfaces at work, and what can we do about it. Our guest today is MeChelle Callen. With over three decades of expertise in HR, OD, and DEIB, MeChelle Callen is a key thought leader in fostering inclusive workplaces, with her commitment to empowering individuals driving her transformative work. She has played a pivotal role in creating award winning programs, including those recognized by Training Magazine’s Top 125, Best Places to Work, and the Brandon Hall Award for Excellence. MeChelle is the founder and CEO of Equitable HR Consulting. MeChelle, welcome. So MeChelle, what are some subtle signs that a workplace might be toxic, even if it’s not immediately obvious? And are there anything that we as employees or employers should recognize as signs of potential toxicity?

MeChelle 02:12
I think a lot of times, one of the first things I think about is a scan of the area. You know, if people are in an toxic environment, very often they don’t feel like they belong, right? And so one of the things I look at is, what does someone’s desk look like? Have, have they personalized it? Now, of course, there might be an organization that says, “no personal items on your desk, everything in its place, and a place for everything,” but by and large, that’s, that’s not most organizations’ cultures. But what I find interesting is, if someone’s been there six months, if they’ve been there a year, and their office has nothing personalized in it, no photo of their family or something of significance to them, that’s usually, that’s one of the signals I look for. I also look at how folks interact with the swag and the bling of their, their organization. So we all tend to wear our swag when we’re in the office, right? We’re going to a meeting, so we’re going to put on our swag. But then I think about, do you see people out wearing it on the weekends? Are people walking around in their hoodies on the weekend, have your logo or their quarter zips? And even more importantly, people who no longer work for your organization, are they still ambassadors? Are they still wearing your logo items and supporting your organization? I think about meetings. What happens after a meeting? Do the participants, are they back at their desk and working, or do they disappear? And if they disappear, do they disappear because that meeting or that environment was so toxic they need time? Or is it because they’re finding other people to have the meeting after the meeting, which we all know occurs? So I think those are some signs. Also, the lack of boundaries in an organization. When you’re getting that 3 am email or that email on the weekends or several emails over the weekend, and even though very often, our leaders will say, “Oh, I’m just sending it. You don’t have to respond,” when that happens over and over again, I think that creates this culture of expectation that you do have to respond. And so there’s that lack of a border between what is work and what is, what is not work. And you know, just as we all know, a little side tip, you can schedule those. You can write all you want at 3 am on a Saturday night, but you can schedule them for 8 am on a Monday morning as a way to, to stop that. So those are just a few of the signs that, that I really see. And I think for employees, you know, when you’re in that environment, I think it’s important to stop, look and listen. Some of those things that we learned when we were young, right? To really stop and take a breath and really look at the culture of the organization. Look around. How are people engaging? Is everybody heads down? Just, you know, 8am, sure there’s a flood of people, 5pm It’s a ghost town. Are people just in that position, again, where there’s a lot of water cooler chat, there’s a lot of meetings after meetings. So just looking for all of those signs that people don’t feel engaged or that they belong, because the environment can be somewhat toxic for, for them. The other piece of that is to really listen. What are people saying? More importantly, what are people not saying? So listen for those, those silences, those things people aren’t saying to you in an organization.

JoDee 05:59
Great input. I think, too, even just as simple as, are people smiling, right? Do you see smiling faces at work, or does everyone look scared or, you know, depressed or just unhappy there, too?

MeChelle 06:17
Yeah.

JoDee 06:17
MeChelle, I’m curious if you’ve personally experienced or observed the impact of a toxic workplace on, on your own sense of belonging, and how did it impact you?

MeChelle 06:30
Actually, yes, I have experience working in a toxic work environment, and I think one of the ways it manifested itself was as an HR leader… We had decided, as an organization, to put a five-year strategic plan together. The only department that wasn’t at the table as part of this, the task force was HR, and so not being at the table and instead being told, “Well, somebody from the task force will fill you in,” basically, then instead of being at the table, I had 30 minute meetings once every two weeks to be given an update on what was happening in that strategic plan. The outcome of that was, HR was given 18 strategic initiatives to accomplish without any HR input in it.

JoDee 07:27
Oh my.

MeChelle 07:28
So, from a professional standpoint, it made it very difficult for me and for my team to implement – begin to think about, even think about how to implement those. Some of those things we had actually already done, or we were in the process of doing, or we had done it before and stopped doing it with pretty good, data-driven reasons why we weren’t. Right?

Susan 07:53
Sure.

MeChelle 07:53
So that was some of the effects professionally, and I think personally, it, for me, being a seasoned HR professional, it still made me start to doubt myself. You know, why am I not at the table? Is HR not important? Do I not have something to offer? I mean, it just kind of, it affects, I think it affects everyone when you’re in that environment and you start to feel like you don’t belong, that you start to self-doubt, that you start to have those conversations in your own head about, wow, I’m not sure I know what I’m doing, doing here.

Susan 08:30
Wow, gosh. I hate that that happened to you, but I bet many of our listeners can relate. I do think you’re so right that when you’re in an environment that is not one where you feel like you belong, you start to wonder what’s wrong with me, right? It goes to that self-doubt. So MeChelle, in environments where belonging does feel compromised, what strategies or actions can individuals take, do you think, to reclaim their space and maintain their sense of self-worth?

MeChelle 08:58
Yeah, you know, as I talk to, and I’ve been talking, actually, with a lot of women who have had very similar experiences. And one of the things we’ve been talking about is the first thing you have to ask is, should I stay or should I go? I don’t necessarily mean immediately, but do you have, do you need an exit strategy? And if so, what is that, that exit strategy for your own self-preservation? I think the other thing we talk about, when you said that about I start to ask myself, well, what’s wrong with me? You have to really do this at that point. We got to catch that thought, and we have to cancel it, and then we have to change it. And we have to catch that thought and say, “Wait a minute. This is not about my capabilities. This is not about me. It might be the way I’m interacting. Might be the way… but this is not my who I am, and this is not my skills, etc.” So to catch those thoughts, to help to cancel those out and say “I don’t have time in my personal space to take on this negativity, so how am I going to change that talk that I’m having with myself?” I think self-talk is so important to that, and I just feel like you need to really create your, your own safe space. So who are those folks? Are they internally…? Being very careful, right, not to jump into the, let’s become part of that, that water cooler gossip. But how do you find those people that are your safe space to talk about…? Maybe they’re in the organization. Maybe they’re your EAP folks. And maybe you utilize the EAP for, for some self, some self-care and taking care of yourself. Maybe it’s folks outside. There are organizations actually now that work with ending workplace abuse and kind of cultures of bullying. So you might find a group that you can belong to that’s almost like a support group for folks. I think there’s been such a taboo around not feeling like you belong in an organization, that we’re starting to remove that stigma, and so there are opportunities for people to have resources in the community and in the workplace.

JoDee 11:14
And MeChelle, what ideas do you have for leaders to help, where they might foster a culture of belonging, even in the face of challenges, or if they do have toxic environments?

MeChelle 11:31
That’s a really great question. And I think we, many of us, know, and I think many of the listeners know, leadership sets the tone. Leaders set the tone in an organization. So lead by example, model those behaviors of empathy, vulnerability, be a great listener for folks, like I said before, to what they’re saying, but also what they’re not saying. I think it’s so important too, that we be, we’re very careful as leaders not to GLOP people. And GLOPing, for those of you who don’t know what that means, that’s the General Labeling Of People. So not othering people, not putting labels on people that then follow those individuals throughout an organization. So being very careful that, that we don’t do that. I think as leaders too, it’s very important that, either organizationally or on your own, that you spend some time educating yourself on what can you do to create a more inclusive environment? Are you asking yourself in a meeting, are you scanning the table and saying who’s not at this table that should be, and are we having a diverse life experience at the table? Do we see others who might not have a similar experience at the table with us? So I think as leaders, those are some of the things that we can do, and some of that is educating ourselves. What are our own unconscious biases that we might bring into the organization, and how do we strategize to make sure that we recognize those and we, we adjust our behavior or our thinking based on that?

Susan 13:16
It really is great advice, MeChelle. What I love about some of the topics or some of the items that you brought up about trying to really understand, do I have a toxic workplace, or do I not? I think that it’s really taking – leaders taking ownership of understanding and listening and watching. I think so often employers now think, “You know what? I do employee engagement surveys. I do pulse checks. I do exit interviews. I do stay interviews. I really have a good pulse. My organization is thriving. I don’t have problems.” Here’s the thing, when you have problems and that your employees have already disengaged or they don’t trust you, they are not going to use any of those vehicles to tell you the truth. And so I just think your perspective, I think, is really important and really refreshing. So I wanna say thanks for that. I would love to ask you, can you think of one small step people can do in this area about trying to create belonging and end toxicity that could create more joy at work? Is there anything practical, tactical that you think our listeners should walk away with, one small thing that we could do?

MeChelle 14:24
I think if you’re talking about one small thing that we can do to create belonging as an, in an organization, is the same thing that we were told when we were young of how to create belonging in school, in our, on our sports teams. Be the welcomer. Be the person that watches for that person that you can tell is either not comfortable and that doesn’t feel like they belong. Be that person who is the welcomer, who helps people navigate the organization, who, you know, talks about all those unwritten rules, like whether or not you really can wear jeans to work, or really, what is the rule about eating at your desk, all those little things that, as you’re new to an organization, especially, you don’t know. And so be the welcomer. When people come into a new meeting and you can just, I mean, I know how I feel sometimes when I walk in, I’m like, “I don’t know a single person here,” and that one person across the room either goes [waves] or they walk up and they’re like, “Hey, it’s so great to see you again.” That automatically gives me that little bit of breath that I can take to say, “Okay, this is a safe space for me to be.” So how do we create that safe space? By being a welcomer, and by being someone who is that person who stops, looks, and listens for those opportunities to bring people in to the organization, into your group, into whatever it is that you’re, you’re doing.

Susan 15:58
I love that. Thank you.

JoDee 15:59
You know, I’m sure you’ve heard, and many of our listeners have heard recently, there was a lady who had died and was at her desk for four days before anyone found her. Now, when I, when I first heard that story, I assumed she was a remote worker, but she was not. She worked at, and I don’t mean to pick on banks, but she worked at a bank, and I – one of the first questions I asked myself was, do you think she felt included and a sense of belonging, if nobody even noticed for four days that she passed away? So. It was only the smell that gave it away for them. Like, that’s super sad. So.

Susan 16:49
I guess what I have to also say now that it’s 2024, offices don’t get cleaned as often as they used to, and so you would think daily, especially in a bank, they have to daily go through and clean every office. How could – and maybe it happened on a Friday and the week – Who knows? But I just… That’s a scary, scary story.

MeChelle 16:49
Yeah, and that, that makes me very sad, sad for her, and to think about that, and I’m glad you said that, shared that story, though, because I think one of the other things that leaders can do – are you walking around and talking to folks if you’re physically in the office? You know, I used to make “rounds,” for lack of whatever else to say, and walk around the office space in the mornings and just say hi to people and see how’s everybody, how’s everybody doing. In a remote environment, you can still do it, shoot a quick Teams message, text, whatever to say, “Hey,” you know, “We don’t see each other physically, but good morning. How’s it going today?” That’s another little thing. And had somebody done that, it wouldn’t have been four days if somebody would have popped by and said “Hi, so and so, how’s it going today?”

JoDee 17:57
Yeah. Well, MeChelle, how can our listeners reach you if they want to continue the conversation or engage you to help them fix their toxic workplace?

MeChelle 18:09
They can reach me a couple different ways. My first name is spelled M, E, C, H, E, L, L, E, so they can reach me at MeChelle at equitable dash HR dot com. They can also find me, I’m on LinkedIn, and so find me on LinkedIn under my name, MeChelle Callan, so another way to reach me. And then I have a website, equitable-hr.com.

Susan 18:33
All right, wonderful. We’ll have those links in our show notes.

MeChelle 18:36
Thank you.

JoDee 18:37
Thank you for joining.

Susan 18:38
Thank you so much, MeChelle.

MeChelle 18:40
Thank you so much for having me. Have a great day.

JoDee 18:44
Susan, we have a question today from one of our listeners who asks, “Why do some companies wish to cut back on diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts when the benefits have been proven over and over again?”

Susan 19:00
Oh my gosh, that’s an excellent question. I’m hearing and seeing a lot more of it. If you’ve not had a chance to read the SHRM HR Magazine, Winter 2023 edition, I encourage you to take a look at an article there. It’s entitled, “Will the Anti-Woke Movement Suppress Corporate DE&I?” You know, clearly, JoDee, there is pressure on business leaders and by some politicians, some government leaders and some activists to step away from supporting diversity, equity, and inclusion. In this particular article, they reported that 44% of employees agree that a growing number of their colleagues feel alienated by their organization’s DE&I efforts. I think personally that change is scary and it can be difficult, and asking historically privileged staff to open doors, make room at tables, and be more inclusive just doesn’t sit right with everyone. In July of 2023, Attorney Generals from 13 states sent a letter to Fortune 100 business leaders warning them to end racial preferences in hiring. Okay, I have not checked Indiana, but given who’s sitting in our, in that chair in our state, I bet we were one of those 13, JoDee.

JoDee 20:17
I bet we are.

Susan 20:18
I know. Anyway, you know, the fact is, in reality, Fortune 100 companies are not making race-based decisions in hiring, and instead, I truly believe they’re working very hard to eliminate systemic practices that disenfranchise candidates because of race. All the emphasis that I’ve seen with the companies that I work with is that they want to have diverse candidate slates. They want to make sure that if it just so happens it’s all white males that are being considered for the next higher-level role, that they stop, take a pause and say, “Why are we not thinking broadly enough?” It’s not that they’re giving preference to hiring somebody who’s not a white male. It’s instead saying “We have to cast the net wider.” Some big name companies in 2024 that we’re all reading about, who have publicly announced that they’re scaling back their DEI initiatives are companies that we all go to, that we all frequent as consumers. Lowe’s, John Deere, Harley Davidson, and yes, Jack Daniels. And really, most of them have come out publicly to say, “Hey, we’re not, we’re not doing that. We’re not part of the DE&I movement,” is because their consumers have come at them at a way, saying, “Wait a minute, you’re not doing it right. You’re you’re treating people unfairly.” We launched an episode on July 29, 2024 – so pretty recent to this one – that explores DEI in today’s work environment, and it really, we do dig into that pushback that some companies are feeling and the fact that some organizations are cutting back despite the proven productivity and profitability gains achieved by diverse workforces. I am really hopeful that the fear-based anti-woke efforts that we see popping up in various places will soon run its course, and good sound business logic will return with a focus on taking DE&I work to the next level. So I’ll get off my my preacher mound here, JoDee, and say to our listener, I don’t know why people are stepping away from it for any logical reason. I think it’s all kind of emotion-based right now.

JoDee 22:25
Yeah, yeah. Lot of emotions for sure, and lot of costs incurred that – I mean, it sounds like just not everyone has done or did a good job with the efforts when they were in place. I think if we can focus on inclusion and belonging, we can do, like you were explaining in the recruiting efforts, right, including different people in the slate, including thinking broader about things, and then helping people feel like they belong once they’re there.

Susan 23:05
Yeah, so agree. It’s time for in the news. On August 26, 2024, Australia has joined about two dozen other countries, primarily in Europe and Latin America, by enacting a new Right to Disconnect law. These laws prevent employees from being disciplined for failing to respond to work emails, texts, calls, or other points of contact from their employers outside of working hours. A Reuters article on August 26, 2024, reported that in a 2023 Australia Institute survey that Australians had been working an average of 281 hours of unpaid time spent outside of work hours for free. That’s a lot, isn’t it, JoDee?

JoDee 23:48
Yes.

Susan 23:49
In Australia, employers can continue to call or message their staff members after work hours, but cannot punish the employee for ignoring the calls and the requests. Exempt for now from this law are small businesses with less than 15 people, although they will need to start complying with it in August of 2025 – so a year later – and there is some relief for employers who may have concerns because of, there is an emergency situation. Australia’s Fair Work Commission recognizes that, based on the seniority of an individual, that there could be some things that are actual work situations, emergencies that they truly do need to respond to. So with those few exceptions, most Australians are, are covered.

JoDee 24:33
Yeah.

Susan 24:34
You know, it was an earlier episode, you may recall that in The JoyPowered® Workspace Podcast that we mentioned New York City’s debating instituting a Right to Disconnect law. As of now, in fall of 2024, as we’re recording this, we’re not aware of any American laws regarding this on the books yet, although Washington state and California have also considered passing this kind of legislation. So you know, JoDee, it could be coming to the US.

JoDee 25:00
Yeah, yeah, I won’t be surprised if it does. It probably would be good for me and my team if – because I’m not so good at disconnecting myself. So.

Susan 25:13
Yeah, well, I, I appreciate the fact that you’re always accessible to me on the weekends, nights, wherever you are in the world, JoDee, but I do – I just wish I had been better at this in my career. I think I was horrible. I would text and email – I was probably not texting so much, but I was definitely leaving a lot of emails all over the weekends when I had time to think about things and… but, but I certainly never, to my knowledge, made anybody feel bad or disciplined them for not responding till Monday. But I, I should, I, I’m a little, a little bit more cognizant of that. Although I was just thinking today, I was texting friends of mine at seven this morning, I realized not everybody gets up as early as I do, so I think we could all be a little more sensitive, right?

JoDee 25:56
That’s right, that’s right. Well, thanks for listening today, and tune in next time and make it a JoyPowered® day.

Susan 26:05
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