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Mike McRee (00:02)
presenting is really thinking of you as expert and everyone vessels to deposit your subject matter expertise into their heads, right? But I think ultimately what you’re wanting to do is to walk with people, walk alongside

JoDee Curtis (00:22)
Welcome to The JoyPowered® Workspace Podcast, where we help HR and business leaders embrace joy in the workplace. I’m JoDee Curtis, owner of Purple Ink. With me is my friend and co-host, Susan White, owner of Susan Tinder White Consulting, an HR consulting practice. Susan is also a senior executive collaborator with Purple Ink.

Our topic today is on facilitation. I think facilitations is a skill that is underestimated, but absolutely essential. We might be using these skills in a one-on-one or a small group or a meeting or a training or during a retreat. Really a lot of times we don’t — we may not even think of ourselves as being facilitating, like especially in a one-on-one meeting, but yet it is a skill we can use in so many different areas of our lives and work.

But it isn’t just about keeping the meeting or the training, whatever might be on track. Of course, that’s an important part of the skills, but it’s about creating an environment where people feel heard and ideas are exchanged freely and outcomes are achieved with clarity and purpose. When done well, facilitation can energize a group. It can foster collaboration and move teams forward. But when it’s done poorly, and most of us have seen that happen at some point, or it’s maybe even just skipped altogether…

Susan White (02:02)
Yes.

JoDee Curtis (02:10)
…it can lead to confusion, disengagement, and missed opportunities. According to a recent study by Lucid Meetings, 71% of professionals say their meetings are unpredictable. That’s a staggering amount of time and energy lost, often because facilitation is either overlooked or underdeveloped. Many leaders try to facilitate while also participating, which can dilute both roles. I know, Susan, I really learned that at a firm I worked with where our managing partner really preferred not to facilitate meetings. And it took me a while to figure that out about him, that I think I just thought he didn’t like to do it, but he really was being intentional about not facilitating so that he could be a better observer and/or a better participant himself. Have you found that as well, too?

Susan White (03:19)
I have. And in fact, I know that I’m often brought in by companies to facilitate meetings. I don’t really know, understand the content, know what they’re talking about a lot of the time. But sometimes it’s just helpful to have an outside person who’s able to call on people to shorten when someone’s tending to run on, just to have some protocol around it. And I think it’s smart, especially if you really need to get things done in rapid order, you need to ideate, whatever it is, I think that whoever’s running the meeting, whoever’s in charge, I guess, is not always the right person to facilitate.

JoDee Curtis (03:55)
Right. Well said. And you know, really, it’s about bringing in a skilled, and as you said, being a neutral facilitator, right? You might not even really understand about the topic, but you — who better, then, to keep the meeting moving and not have an opinion on what might be happening. But it can really be a game changer. And although I think it can be a game changer in all moments, especially when the stakes are high or when you want everyone, including leadership, to be fully engaged in the conversation.

So why do so many facilitated sessions fall flat? Well, often it’s due to lack of structure, unclear goals, or facilitators who talk more than they listen. Sometimes it’s simply because we default to what we’ve always done, like relying on slide decks instead of interactions.

I know I have many times invited facilitators to my own team meetings and retreats, including you, Susan. And as I mentioned earlier, it can be very difficult to participate and lead at the same time. I remember years ago, a group hired me to facilitate a full day retreat and that they had a group of research oncologists who were working on treatments for cancer. I mean, talk about what could have been a fish out of water, right? Like, I had no knowledge of the topic. Actually, in hindsight, when I look back — and it was early in my business too — I can’t even believe they hired me.

However, when the meeting was over, I had so much praise and so many positive conversations just because of the fact that my only role was to facilitate and I didn’t have an opinion on the topic itself. So do you have any examples of your own facilitation techniques when training or leading meetings?

Susan White (05:50)
Mm-hmm. Yes, I would tell you that I’ve facilitated strategic planning meetings. I’ve facilitated a number of crucial conversations inside organizations where the stakes were high, emotions were high, and they just really felt they needed somebody independent in the room. So I’ve done that quite a bit. And then, of course, lots of meetings. I’ve facilitated succession planning meetings and selection committee meetings and things like that.

JoDee Curtis (06:23)
Yeah.

Susan White (06:39)
I do think that it doesn’t really matter the topic, if you’re brought in to facilitate, you really need to bring your A game. And there’s certain things that I think every facilitator out there knows. You need to start the day with ground rules. You’ve got to make sure that people are going to be comfortable for the day. And sometimes that means we set some norms. That might mean that we put computers away, or it might mean that everybody’s going to have their computer out. It depends on that particular audience, right?

You also need to have an agenda with, I think, specific times on it. Meetings can just take a life of their own unless you have a set format. It’s okay when you’re in a meeting, the facilitator sees that a discussion that they anticipated was gonna take 10 minutes is turning into about 15 or more. The facilitator can call audibles and say, hey, obviously there’s a lot of weight in this room on this particular topic. We’d only allotted 10 minutes. Let’s call as a group. Do we want to change the agenda? Do we wanna stick a pin in it for now? Let’s as a group decide what we’re going to do.

But I do think it’s important you have an agenda with a time frame set up for everything you want to talk about. And then recognition that you may have to, in the midst of it, pivot, change, but that way nothing that you hope to accomplish is left unsaid, undone. You can schedule further meetings or you can decide to dig deeper at the time if you need to.

JoDee Curtis (08:04)
Yeah, great input and great ideas. And today we are going to be joined by two expert facilitators who will help us unpack also what they think great facilitation looks like. Our first guest is Erin Fischer. Erin is the owner of The Leadership and Training Studio, a leadership development company that focuses on bringing highly engaging components to program design and facilitation sessions. She’s written two books on the topic and she’s spoken in 46 states. She’s written hundreds of leadership programs for her clients.

Our second guest is Mike McRee. He has over 30 years of consulting, executive leadership, training, facilitation, and organizational development experience. And he strongly believes in creating transformational learning experiences.

Susan White (09:04)
Mike, what’s the difference between presenting and facilitating?

Mike McRee (09:09)
Susan, I think probably the easiest way that I can explain that is sage on the stage versus guide on the side, right?

Susan White (09:18)
I love that.

Mike McRee (09:21)
Another way to say it, I think, easily would be, like, talking at versus talking with, right? So these are good indications, but I think presenting is really thinking of you as expert and everyone vessels to deposit your subject matter expertise into their heads, right? But I think ultimately what you’re wanting to do is to walk with people, walk alongside, to be with instead of, you know, to think that you’re the expert on every topic and every situation is probably not accurate. At least in my case, I’ll say it that way. And so being able to facilitate the conversation rather than presenting or talking at, I think really engages people at a much more higher rate.

Susan White (10:08)
That’s a great analogy. Thank you.

Mike McRee (10:10)
Yeah, of course.

JoDee Curtis (10:12)
Yeah, right. Yes. And Erin, how do you describe the 70-30 rule and how do you recommend people create an experience that utilizes that rule?

Erin Fischer (10:23)
You all, one of my favorite clients that I did work with for last summer said, “I’ve got 225 slides for a four-hour program.” And I said to him, “When do they breathe and have fun and talk?” And he said, “They don’t.” And so I said to him, “The 70-30 rule applies here more than ever,” which is a really simple principle.

70% of the time, if you are a facilitator, you should be letting your participants activate in some way. That might be going to a flip chart. That might be doing a Google slide collectively. That might be a pair and share. That might be a game as difficult as win as much as you can. But only 30% of the time should the facilitator be giving a little content, context, storytelling, setting the stage for them so that they’re ready to go.

Most of us have this in reverse. Most of us are in the space where we have 225 slides. So we, Mike and I collectively, are trying to reverse that so that everything that people go to, they say things like, that was so fast. We talked the whole entire time. We actually need more time. That’s what we want at the end.

JoDee Curtis (11:35)
Yeah, I love that. That’s a great rule, really, for people to think about how much am I talking, right?

Susan White (11:44)
Leave them wanting more, I love that. So Mike, what is relationship currency and how does it apply to effective facilitation?

Mike McRee (11:54)
Susan, I like to think about our old-school bank accounts here. So if you don’t make deposits before you make withdrawals, at least in my bank account, it’s called insufficient funds. And I think it’s true with people as much as it is money, right? And when you think about that, or if we’re going to engage them in a particular topic and we’re going to have a great facilitation and a good program, what are the deposits that you’re putting in with people in advance or at the start of the session?

And so there can be all kind of ways that you do that, right? So greeting people at the door, right? Working the room and shaking hands and welcoming them and telling them that you’re glad that they’re here, right? All of these are types of deposits, but they’re going to be things that are done prior to the program. What are you sending them in advance? How are you answering their questions? All of those things are deposits so that people are walking in with as much information that they need to hit the ground running and be ready to talk about the subject that you’re talking about that day.

So at the end of the day, you gotta make deposits before you can make withdrawals. And hopefully, you know, it’s an analogy here as you can both know. So we’re not really making withdrawals with people, but it’s really asking them to engage in the program. And I think when you make deposits, people are more likely to engage and highly engage in your program.

JoDee Curtis (13:29)
Yeah. Mike, you’re talking to a former banker with Susan. So those words resonate.

Susan White (13:36)
You’re speaking my language. Right.

JoDee Curtis (13:40)
Yeah. Yeah. And Erin, I think a lot of us go to meetings or trainings anymore and we almost expect to have a PowerPoint that is probably going to be boring. How do you engage adults to have more fun who might be expecting a boring PowerPoint?

Erin Fischer (14:03)
I’m so glad you asked because I think this is one of my life’s missions. Besides adding the 70-30 rule to everything, when we think about making it interactive, Mike and I work in higher ed, and so we work with lot of academics who are so brilliant and so smart and so well-researched, but it doesn’t mean that they know how to connect to their audience. And so when we think about the work that we do and any way that we can make it more engaging and interactive, the better.

And I think the rule of thumb that most of us have in our brains that we need to override is that adult learners are not interested in our warmups, our games, our practicing. We assume that they want this really diligent experience. And I find the more experience that they have, the more likely they are to have fun because it’s a pattern interrupt for them. They are surprised and shocked and engaged in the process. And so we say the more fun that we can have with folks, the more likely we are to get better results on our evaluations.

JoDee Curtis (15:07)
Yeah, nice.

Susan White (15:09)
Erin, how can you use the camp model to be a better facilitator?

Erin Fischer (15:13)
I’m so glad you asked. Okay, so the camp model is this. As a full-time facilitator and content writer, you have to know that my best life experiences were at camp. And as a camp counselor, we did everything to create experience for our campers, of course, and our feedback from parents was, like, “How do you get my kids to do all of these things?” Probably going back to 70-30 rule.

But the camp experience is when you think about if you were to send a niece or nephew, a grandchild, a sibling or a kid of yours to camp, and they came back and said to you things like, “I mean, we went to see the horses, but we didn’t feed them or ride them. They talked about the horses and where their lineage and how beautiful they are, but we never got on them. We went to the ropes course and they gave us a whole speech about the security of the ropes course. So we went to art class and we did a gallery walk of all the other campers’ artwork, but we never made our own art,” we would be so frustrated that we paid for that experience.

The same holds true for facilitation. When we think about it, when we engage our participants at a high level, it means that they get to do all of the work. They get to create the experience for themselves. And so I always use the camp analogy. You wouldn’t send campers to camp to have a really boring experience where we told them about it versus letting them do it. So if you are a facilitator, the trick is really simple. Look at your PowerPoint or your guide and figure out ways that you can turn over content to them to let them practice.

JoDee Curtis (16:50)
I love it. Mike, what other tips do you have about facilitating?

Mike McRee (16:59)
Yeah, JoDee, I think if you all were like Erin and I, when you first started out facilitating, you were some mashup of seven to 10 other people that you copied that you thought were really good. And you typically get better over time. I like to call these reps, right? Where you you do this and I think one of the things that is interesting about that is even though you get experience and you have reps, it doesn’t mean that you develop good form or good technique or good strength.

Just by doing it doesn’t mean that you get better at it and I know this seems obvious, but the best facilitators, and at least the ones that I studied through my dissertation, had a continuous improvement process in play. So what that looked like was not just showing up and doing the program, it meant actively preparing and being, customizing the content to the audience that you’re doing. It made them think about what do they wanna stop, start, and continue in their own facilitation. And each one of those reps, if you will, they took very seriously as another opportunity to build good form and good technique in that process.

One of the other kind of, like, little secrets that I’ve seen really great facilitators do is that they had their own facilitation journal. So while they were asking other participants to kind of write down in their notebook or fill out whatever, they would have their own notebook and journal of, like, how is this facilitation going? What are the things that I want to try differently? What are the — now the key is not only to capture that in the moment, but then refer back to it before your next facilitation. But great facilitators really had this continuous improvement process.

And while it sounds simple, most people don’t do it. They just jump from next program to next program without really thinking what worked well there, what do I want to change, what would I do differently, what do I need to continue to do and that because none of us start out awesome. It is a process that we get better over time, but that continuous improvement process I think is really one of the keys to improving your facilitation over time.

JoDee Curtis (19:26)
I love that. know for me, I think about those things a lot, but I don’t usually write them down, so then I don’t remember. I go to facilitate the next one, I was like, I know I told myself there was something I wanted to be better at or do differently, but I don’t remember what it was. So just having a journal is a great idea.

Mike McRee (19:40)
Right. Yeah.

JoDee Curtis (19:58)
Yeah.

Erin Fischer (19:58)
Mike often talks about the difference between being on the freshman squad or the JV squad and the varsity squad and I love his analogy there. That’s a varsity move.

JoDee Curtis (20:06)
Yeah. Yeah. Well said.

Susan White (20:08)
For sure. So what are some other varsity moves or habits that you’ve seen employed?

Erin Fischer (20:16)
Okay, so we talked about 70-30 rule. We talked about being diligent about, mindful of camp experiences, so what can you do to allow them to experience this? But I think for us, when we go through content, we color-code a lot of things. We take notes and then we take notes on top of our notes. We alpha test things, we beta test things, then we go and deliver and we update immediately after we deliver content. Mike and I are working on our facilitation school, and we have looked at that guide over the past 11 months probably a dozen times to make it better.

Susan White (20:54)
That’s great.

JoDee Curtis (20:54)
Nice, And you know, we always like to ask our listeners a question about joy. Erin, what advice can you give our listeners on creating more joy at work?

Erin Fischer (21:07)
Ooh, at work in general?

JoDee Curtis (21:09)
Yeah, or could be specific to facilitation.

Erin Fischer (21:15)
One of the things that we’ve asked our folks to do at the beginning of sessions or right after a big break, like a lunch break, is what is the happiest news that you’ve received lately? And what we find is that it does two things. One, it allows people who normally don’t like the spotlight on them to share something that’s really important that’s going on in their life.

But it also allows for a little bit of vulnerability for Mike and I to say, like, we are humans having this human experience, and we’ve got some things that are really brilliant that are happening to us. And so it allows for some connection, some deposits, as Mike says. So asking the simple question, what do you have that’s really good news right now that you want the whole team to know? And most of it’s babies, proposals, moving houses, new jobs, basic stuff, but things that people are glowing about and so it’s just fun to hear.

JoDee Curtis (22:12)
Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Love it.

Susan White (22:15)
I do too. So Mike, what is the happiest news that you’ve gotten recently?

Mike McRee (22:19)
Good question. I will have to say that our daughter scoring very well on the ACT. So we have a rising senior, and so we’re now in the college tour, college prep. and more so than anything, not only am I super proud of her for achieving this, she got that early in in her kind of testing. And that’s really decreased the stress of the test and the application process for her. So I will tell you that that means I know we’re getting in some places and that’s a happy place for me and for her. So we, no question, are super proud of her and her accomplishments so far.

Susan White (23:03)
Yes. Congratulations to you. That makes me happy. So thank you.

Mike McRee (23:11)
Yeah, congratulations to her. I didn’t do take the test. It was all her, right?

JoDee Curtis (23:18)
Hopefully that turns into a little financial relief as well.

Mike McRee (23:22)
We can only hope, right? We can only hope.

JoDee Curtis (23:24)
Yeah. Yeah, that’s awesome. Well, thanks to both of you for joining us today. If our listeners want to learn more about facilitating, how can they reach out to you?

Erin Fischer (23:39)
I would say the best place to find me is on LinkedIn and also on my website, theleadershipandtrainingstudio.com.

JoDee Curtis (23:48)
All right. And we’ll put those links in our show notes as well, too.

Mike McRee (23:53)
Same for me, LinkedIn and the company web page is thewhitespacegroup.com. And so you can actually find both Erin and I typically on both of our websites since we partner. We do some of our own work, but we also do a lot of joint work and this facilitation school has been, let’s call it a Wonder Twin Powers Activate approach. So we’ve been really…

Erin Fischer (24:16)
That’s right.

Mike McRee (24:20)
…had a lot of fun working with people doing this and helping improve their skill sets. It’s been such a pleasure connecting with you all today.

JoDee Curtis (24:24)
I love it. Yeah, well thank you. You got some great ideas and some great tips and thanks again.

Susan White (24:27)
Thank you.

Erin Fischer (24:36)
Thanks to you all.

JoDee Curtis (24:37)
We also have some other tips for great facilitators.

Susan White (24:41)
Yeah, the first is model the behavior you want. I think that the energy that the facilitator brings to a session is going to be reflected in the energy that participants have. So if you’re engaged and positive, others will follow.

JoDee Curtis (24:55)
The next one is create clarity. Ask clarifying questions and summarize input to ensure shared understanding. I think that one’s really important in that sometimes we might have a few people in the room who speak up or say, “I agree” or “that’s right,” and so then we assume everyone’s on board and we move on to the next topic or the next item without really doing a check of everyone in the room that they get it or they’re with you.

Susan White (25:32)
Yeah, and building off of that, as a facilitator, you really want to be inclusive. You’re not, you don’t want to demand that every single person in the room say something. And I’ve seen that happen and I’ve seen it fall flat or people feel really some anxiety when they’re put on the spot. But you want to make sure you create time and space for everyone who has a thought or an opinion to speak up. And you might decide not everybody is going to be comfortable speaking up. So maybe you do some polling questions where people can weigh in, they can vote. Maybe you offer different opportunities for people to put things in writing based on whatever it is you’re discussing. But try to figure out how can I create that time and space so that you are inclusive.

JoDee Curtis (26:15)
Yeah, love it. Also, one thing facilitators really need to be careful with is to guide the conversation, don’t dominate, right? Remember your role is to facilitate, not to be talking all the time. So don’t control the conversation. Just be ready to maybe redirect or refocus or move along or do a time check to keep the conversation going and asking good questions to spur some more engagement.

Susan White (26:51)
Yeah, I would say that facilitation isn’t that you show up and then you facilitate. There’s got to be a lot of preparation in advance of it. You may not be as familiar with the content as the participants are, but you do want to know who’s going to be in the room. If you can get any insights on their style, their level in the organization so that as you come in the room, you can leverage what you know about the individuals. You want to think about that, the group, the group dynamics, you want to understand what their goals are, what is it they’re hoping to achieve. That’s going to help you build the agenda that you want to come in there with. And great facilitation. It starts long before that meeting starts.

JoDee Curtis (27:29)
Yeah, yeah, agree. Facilitation is one more skill that when we do it right, it can power more joyful, effective workspaces. So think about what your skills are or who is serving as a facilitator in your meetings and events.

Susan White (27:51)
JoDee, we have a listener question. We welcome questions from any of our listeners anytime. Here it is today. “What recommendations do you have for employers that don’t have budget for childcare options? Have you heard of businesses partnering with a learning center for their employees to get discount rates or anything else that could be helpful to us?”

JoDee Curtis (28:13)
Yeah, I, you know, the listener specifically mentioned employers that don’t have a budget, so I try and share some things that aren’t going to cost the employer much or at least can keep costs down. Of course, if your employer has a daycare center or if they are partnering with a daycare center, that would be fantastic. I didn’t know of any who are partnering with daycare centers, so I don’t have specifics on that.

But some other things I think you can do is number one is just having flexible work arrangements, if that makes sense in your organization to allow for flexible start end times to accommodate school or daycare schedules. Maybe if one spouse can go into work early and the other one goes later, possibly that could reduce the daycare costs and/or allow for more flexibility in choosing daycare as well. Of course, if they can work remote or hybrid, that can assist. Although I don’t give that advice to say people should try and work remotely and take care of their kids, right? It’s just that sometimes you have more flexibility when that is an option.

So, you know, normal, normalizing taking leave so that new parents maybe feel comfortable that they can take a longer maternity leave or paternity leave, for example. And then support a reintegration after time off, maybe that they can come back on a part-time basis for a while, allowing them time to find the right childcare as well.

Certainly, I think partnering with local childcare providers could be help. If you have enough people in the organization going there that maybe they could give priority or discounted access, I always feel like it doesn’t hurt to ask, right, if you could do that.

And then creating a caregiver-friendly culture, like avoiding scheduling meetings or expecting responses outside of core work hours. Again, that can support the more flexible hours. Publicly supporting caregiving responsibilities to reduce the stigma around those with younger children or dealing with daycare issues. Maybe even highlighting during onboarding or internal communications, any ideas or tips or resources that might be available. Certainly, sharing information about local child Head Start programs, or maybe some nonprofit services. You could consider adopting a dependent care flexible spending account and encouraging employees to participate in that. Start a caregiver employee resource group, even, to facilitate peer support and research sharing amongst employees.

And the last one is thinking about offering micro benefits. So provide a modest monthly stipend or lifestyle spending account that could be earmarked for childcare. I think in that case, it’s important to give some flexibility on what those can be used for so that people who do not have childcare responsibilities don’t feel like they’re not getting something. And then educating and advocating, hosting webinars or lunch and learns on navigating childcare options or even tax credits.

So I wish our listener luck and I’m glad to hear people are looking for ways to help those who have childcare costs, expenses, or even just need to figure out the right childcare for their children.

Susan White (32:39)
JoDee, I just might mention that early in my career, I worked for a large bank that had a large retail function and we were located all over the country. And we did enter into a partnership, which was not caught. We did not pay a dime, but our employees would get discounts. But we did a really, I think, effective job at promoting their daycare in our onboarding process. So it was no cost to us, but it did help our employees. So it was really a win-win. So your point about ask the local daycares that are there to see who wants to partner, you’ll promote their product and will benefit your employees. So it’s worth an absolute try.

JoDee Curtis (33:15)
Yeah, I love it. Love it.

Now it’s time for in the news. I recently came across the book, “The Generous Leader” by Joe Davis. It was released in 2024. The book is described as leading successfully in a world full of disruption means building more than technical skills. Yes, you must deliver results, but to run a successful business, you need people.

People today want leaders who can and will work to see beyond themselves and the bottom line. So you must learn to lead with your heart. Being vulnerable with your staff is intimidating or can be intimidating. But when — connecting with people will not only grow yourself as a leader and a person, but your business will likely grow as well. He also recommends to bring your authentic self to your leadership takes courage and commitment, but you reap profound benefits from heart-led, generous acts. And this book presents seven ways to give of yourself for everyone’s gain. Susan, why don’t you start with the first one?

Susan White (34:33)
Sure. Generous communication. Be real and build deep connections through your communication.

JoDee Curtis (34:41)
Yeah. And generous listening. Be curious about another’s perspective. Ask questions and listen to their answers.

Susan White (34:52)
Generous inclusion. Be inclusive to invite collaboration and show respect to everyone.

JoDee Curtis (34:58)
Yeah. And the generous ally. Take chances to make chances for others.

Susan White (35:06)
Generous development. Validate strengths and success, identify expansive opportunities.

JoDee Curtis (35:14)
And generous moments. I love this one, where he suggests we make small acts of acknowledgement and important moments to make a big impact on others.

Susan White (35:26)
And then finally, number seven, give up the mask. Be emotionally accessible with authenticity and vulnerability. Probably the hardest one of all.

JoDee Curtis (35:36)
Yep, yep. Admittedly, I haven’t read this book yet, but I added it to my reading list when I came across it. And I thought the book sounded like it is a very people-oriented and has good advice for business leaders and HR professionals.

Susan White (35:54)
Yes, it sounds intriguing.

JoDee Curtis (35:56)
If you’re SHRM certified, you can get credit for listening to this episode. To get the code, go to getjoypowered.com slash shrm and fill out a short evaluation. When you finish the evaluation, you’ll get the code and a link to a proof of participation certificate. The code will expire on September 22nd, 2026.

Again, that’s getjoypowered.com slash shrm to get the code, which will expire on September 22nd, 2026. Thank you for listening and thank you for your dedication to the HR profession. Please tune in next time and of course, make it a JoyPowered® day.

Susan White (36:47)
Thank you.