Click here for this episode’s show notes.

This transcript was created using an automated transcription service and may contain errors.

Bill Taylor (00:02)
A lot of people think of conflict as being entirely negative, and it actually is an essential part of growing relationships. You have to have conflict and you have to manage it positively.

Susan White (00:17)
Welcome to The JoyPowered® Workspace, where we help people leaders embrace joy in the workplace. I’m Susan White, owner of Susan Tinder White Consulting, an HR consulting practice. Joining me is my co-host and dear friend, JoDee Curtis, owner of Purple Ink, a large-scale human resource firm that I’m part of as an executive collaborator.

Today, we’re gonna talk about workplace conflict. It is a topic many of us wish we could avoid, yet it shows up in every organization, even the healthiest, most joyful ones. And because conflict is such a natural part of working with other humans, understanding how to recognize it, navigate it, and even grow from it can make a tremendous difference in the way our teams collaborate and thrive. Workplace conflict is surprisingly common. Sarah Mitchell at gitnux.org posted an article on December 11th, 2025 entitled, “Workplace Conflict Statistics.” JoDee, I always love some stats.

JoDee Curtis (01:14)
Yeah, me too.

Susan White (01:19)
85% of employees say they experience some kind of disagreement at work. 85%.

JoDee Curtis (01:26)
That’s a lot. And nearly 29% of employees say they encounter conflict almost constantly, which can eat up time, energy, and team joy every work week.

Susan White (01:27)
Yeah. My gosh. In the United States, conflict is estimated to cost employers approximately $359 billion in paid hours annually, as talented folks spend an average of 2.8 hours each week managing tensions instead of thriving at their core work. I know.

Now, we have discussed conflict at work in two other episodes of the Joy Powered Workspace. The first one was “Handling Workplace Conflict” that originally aired February 24th, 2020 and was rebroadcast on November the 6th, 2023, and our second episode was “How to Mediate Workplace Conflict” that dropped September 9th, 2024. And yet we have more to say and really much more to learn because honestly, it’s everywhere we go into organizations to consult, there’s some conflict and we do believe that when teams learn to navigate conflict well, it can make that team JoyPowered®.

So we’ve invited a guest to help us on this continual learning journey. Our guest today is Bill Taylor, founder of Sports Conflict Lab. He has 22 years of head coaching — college coaching in fact — under his belt. He coached at Northwest University in Kirkland, Washington and Lipscomb University in Nashville, Tennessee.

JoDee Curtis (02:59)
Wow.

Susan White (03:07)
Under Bill’s leadership, his cross country and track and field teams won a national championship and 15 conference championships. Recognizing navigating sports conflict can be leveraged to manage workplace conflict led Bill to earn a master’s degree in conflict management and create a consulting business that equips business leaders with conflict management skills. I bet he has a lot of sports analogies.

JoDee Curtis (03:27)
I bet.

Susan White (03:36)
I tend — I know, JoDee, whenever I use a sports analogy in my training or speaking with people, I always end up something like, you know, “and then the player shot for a field goal,” or… when I’m talking about basketball or I just, you know, I, I mix my metaphors, so I try not to do it, but I’m glad we’ve got an expert today in coaching sports and business.

JoDee Curtis (03:56)
Yes, I love his combination of coaching and then having a master’s in this field.

Susan White (03:59)
Yes! It’s wonderful.

Bill, we are so glad that you’re here. Thank you for joining us.

Bill Taylor (04:10)
Thank you guys, I’m really excited to be here.

Susan White (04:13)
So Bill, why do you think that conflict is an essential part of building relationships and building organizations?

Bill Taylor (04:20)
Yeah, I mean the first thing is there’s always conflict. People think that maybe there isn’t, but every relationship has conflict, so it has to be dealt with one way or another. And a lot of people think of conflict as being entirely negative. And it actually is an essential part of growing relationships. You have to have conflict and you have to manage it positively. And if you manage it positively, you get a lot of amazing benefits.

So conflict, when you work through conflict, you communicate. And if you’re doing it correctly, if you have the right tools, you’re communicating in positive ways. And communication builds relationships, clarifies things. So it creates and improves communication. It clarifies expectations. As you work through a conflict, you start to understand what the expectations of each party, each person in the conflict are, which opens up understanding. It decreases negative emotion.

If you do it right — and we’ll go through the other side of this — but I mean, you can really manage emotions and bring them into a controllable space, which improves well-being. It increases accountability as people understand where they stand and what the expectations are. They now can be held accountable to that in ways that maybe they couldn’t be as much previously.

It opens up engagement as people work together. They’re doing team building, essentially. They’re problem solving, they’re learning how to cooperate, how to work together. And it increases trust, which is essential. So all those things lead to more productivity, more success, and more enjoyment, all as a result of working through conflict in a positive way. And again, conflict’s gonna be there either way, so it’s just what you let it do to you.

Susan White (06:03)
It sounds like it takes courage to do it, but well worth it.

Bill Taylor (06:06)
It does take courage, but I think a lot of that courage comes from when you learn the skills, you understand conflict and you learn the skills, you become more confident and it’s not as scary.

Susan White (06:17)
Wow, that’s great.

JoDee Curtis (06:19)
Yeah. And Bill, what do you see as the risks if we mismanage that conflict or many people’s favorite approach, which is to avoid it altogether? What happens — What are those risks at work?

Bill Taylor (06:36)
Yeah, I mean, they’re honestly the exact opposite. So first of all, the best-case scenario is, and this is what happens a lot of times with avoidance, is you don’t get any of the positive benefits of building a relationship and going to that next level. But beyond that, or if you mismanage conflict, you’re getting all the opposites of everything I said. So your communication is either non-existent in avoidance or it’s worse: bad communication that makes conflict worse.

You don’t clarify expectations, you misunderstand each other. It increases emotion and decreases well-being as you dwell on the conflict or dwell on what’s making you upset or what you have a problem with, real or perceived. It’s not good to carry that around. That distracts you from the task at hand and doing your best work. Less accountability, what are you being held accountable to? You can’t even clarify that very well.

No engagement, so it’s just all the opposites of everything which then leads to less success, less enjoyment, and it’s all unnecessary really in most cases. Some things are unavoidable, but in most cases there’s a lot of control over this stuff that people just don’t know they could have.

There’s the risk of total destruction. So if you don’t manage conflict correctly, I just went through a whole list of negative things that make life less enjoyable. But actually, the ultimate end of a really bad conflict is loss of job or loss of, or worse. I mean, you can destroy everything with one big mismanaged conflict.

Susan White (08:12)
My gosh, for sure. Wow. So I know that you work with different companies. You certainly have great experience working with teams and coaching. What do you think is at the core of most of the workplace conflict that you’re hearing about, seeing about, or that we’re wrestling with?

Bill Taylor (08:29)
Yeah, and the funny thing is conflict is universal. So it may be about different things in sports versus companies versus your marriage versus friendships, but it’s all kind of the same problems exist, the same tools exist. I think primarily unmet expectations, whether those are perceived or real is hard to know, but it doesn’t really matter if they’re perceived or real. So performance that isn’t what somebody wants from themselves or from somebody else. Lack of support or feeling of lack of support. Any damage to trust or respect issues. I think those are kind of the primary ones.

The big thing is, you know, this is why conflict is inevitable is because no two people, no matter how similar they appear to be, no two people see the world the same. No two people are the same. They can come up in the exact same — I mean, twins, they still are seeing the world, perceiving the world, interpreting the world their own way. They still have their own expectations and desires, goals, experiences. I mean, so conflict’s inevitable and that’s gonna manifest itself in the workplace and on a team everywhere.

Susan White (09:51)
It’s funny you would say that. JoDee often says, I think the key to success in business is setting expectations. And if the core of conflict is expectations not met, I think that, boy, that’s just profound. So I love that, JoDee, and I love that, Bill.

JoDee Curtis (10:07)
Yeah, I think too though — and Bill, I’m curious what you think about this — is that we have, we don’t share our expectations. So we have unmet expectations, but we never said out loud what it would take to meet the expectations. And especially if we’re doing that on both sides, neither one of us set the expectations. Of course, it’s going to be unlikely that we’re going to meet them…

Bill Taylor (10:26)
Right.

JoDee Curtis (10:36)
…if we didn’t say what they were to start with.

Bill Taylor (10:40)
And that’s the whole thing. So then you have the internal conflict and people are afraid to express those expectations because what if the other person doesn’t like it or what if they get mad at me?

JoDee Curtis (10:47)
Yeah.

Bill Taylor (10:48)
And by doing that though, they’re creating the whole entire environment for bad conflicts that can’t be resolved. And like we just talked about, missing all those great things that come when you do dialogue, when you do know how to work together and talk together. So exactly, exactly.

Susan White (11:06)
So JoDee, I know you know my husband Bill quite well. And he used to always say that the key to a happy marriage was low expectations. And he always used to say that. And you know what? I think we’ve had a happy marriage, but maybe my expectations were too low. I just don’t know.

JoDee Curtis (11:09)
Yeah.

Bill Taylor (11:22)
And I would contend that it’s better to work through those things and have high expectations and happiness.

Susan White (11:26)
Bill, I think you’re right. I think I’m gonna have to talk with my Bill. Yeah.

JoDee Curtis (11:34)
So, and Bill, what — You mentioned about tools. What types of tools do you think are the best to help manage conflicts successfully?

Bill Taylor (11:46)
Yeah, so it’s funny, in my book, I highlight five main tools. I wrote the book — I actually wrote a book before I wrote this book. And it was huge. And I really tapped into all my notes and all my reading and stuff from my Conflict Management Master’s program. And I wrote this amazing… full of all kinds of great information and all kinds of tools and all kinds of — it’s very highly academic. And I read it when I was done and it was long and it was boring. I scrapped the whole thing, went into about three months of like writer’s mourning, like what do I do now?

And then I came back and I thought, well, you know, especially with coaches, coaches work. You know, college coaches especially work probably 60 — I worked 80 hours a week pretty regularly and 60’s probably a light week. And I didn’t have a lot of time to read and learn stuff, but I needed to. And so I reassessed how I went about it. I thought, what are gonna be — if I were to write the shortest, most effective book I could possibly write on conflict, especially for coaches or for busy people, executives that don’t have much time, what would be my main focus? And so I kind of reworked it and went, what are the five main tools? So I’ll kind of just touch on the five that I talk about in the book. I’m not gonna be able to go into too much detail, but these are the five that I identified.

The first one’s emotion. And so I had a class in my master’s program called conflict communications, and it was taught by Dr. Jeff Thompson, who was a New York Police Department detective crisis negotiator, so hostage negotiations, suicide situations and stuff. He — one of the — it was pretty surprising, because he said, you know, when we get to a conflict like that, or a crisis situation, our number one goal is not to resolve the situation. And we’re like, of course, you have a hostage situation, you have somebody on the ledge, you wanna pull them in.

He said our number one goal is to decrease emotion. And they will take as much time as they can possibly take, however long it takes, to work on bringing down emotion because no good decisions are made in high emotion. So they can’t, they don’t believe they can resolve the conflict positively if they haven’t identified, controlled, and worked with somebody until their emotions are down, then they’re willing to listen to logic and resolve in a positive way. But if they’re in high emotion, they’re likely to do something that they will regret or that, you. know, hurts them or others that they would never do in logic.

So that’s the first tool. And I say, you can master every other tool of conflict management, and if you can’t control your emotion and can’t help somebody else control their emotion, you’re not gonna resolve probably any conflict. So emotional control, identification, and patience is number one.

Number two is communication. And there’s multiple aspects of that. Probably the biggest one is being a good active listener. I always thought I was a good listener. And maybe I was, I don’t know. But as I learned more about active listening, I learned that even if you’re listening, you need to demonstrate you’re listening. And asking questions, being patient, not being quick to respond or defend, those are hard things, but those are essential in a conflict or in communication. As well as, what is your nonverbal, verbal, I mean communication is, you guys can hear the words I’m speaking, but you also see my face, body language, tone, eye contact. People don’t always take control of those things.

I liken it to when I was a kid, you know, I’d get in trouble maybe and my mom would be scolding me and I’d be, you know, I don’t want to be scolded. And all of sudden she’d go, wipe that look off your face. And I’d be like, well, look, well.

There was a look on my face. I didn’t know, but I was communicating something to her that I didn’t intend to communicate that was opposite of the words I was using and it wasn’t helping me. So we do that even as adults. We don’t realize what our tone is sometimes or what the words we use or things like that. So I think communication is really important in terms of all aspects, even more so nonverbal communication.

I used to write these really long emails to my team. I had 100 athletes in some years, so I’d kind of try and communicate things. And then sometimes I’d try and communicate corrections or things I was upset about. Well, they don’t come across the same in written email or a text as they do when you’re talking in person. And I would get myself into trouble, know, somebody’d misunderstand and be upset with me.

So I kind of learned that my personal rule is I don’t communicate anything but facts in written communication. If it’s correction or anything like that, I save it for in person because there’s just too much of a chance for the voice inside one’s head to be taking over. And especially if somebody’s already upset with you a little bit, they’re going to read everything you say with a tone and an intention that is not…you know. Meanwhile, I’m writing everything with a voice in my own head, but that doesn’t mean it’s coming across. So those are really big communication tools.

We have a concept in conflict called Below the Line. That’s my third tool. It’s one of the most amazing tools I’ve ever seen. It’s a little complicated, and it’s about the difference between issues and interests. And so I’m not going to go too much into it, but issues are what somebody says a conflict is about. “I have a problem with this,” or “you do this,” or…

The conflict isn’t always about the issue. Sometimes it’s about what our interests, which are below the line, the things that aren’t said. And so you could work to resolve an issue and all the whole time it might be a whole different thing that is really bothering them. And so in Below the Line, there are a bunch of tools that are usable to try to figure out what a person’s Below the Lines are so that you can resolve the entirety of the conflict. Or maybe the issue was never the conflict, it was always these other things.

And sometimes people know their issue or their interests, sometimes they don’t even know, they’re subconscious, but they’re still just as real. And what I love about Below the Line is actually once you start using the tools correctly, it kind of gives you an idea of why people do some of the things they do. So you can get frustrated with people, why in the world are they acting that way? Why would they do that? But when you start examining and learning about a person, you start to think, well, okay, they’re doing this because of this. And I may not agree with them doing that, but now I understand why, so I can deal with it better. I’m better with it. So I just think it’s an amazing tool. It really helps in conflict management, makes sure you’re solving the right conflict, but also helps you learn and understand people better.

The last two are Win-Win with Creative Solutions. And what that means is, a lot of people go into conflict thinking, I have to win the conflict. And that means somebody else needs to lose the conflict. And that doesn’t resolve conflict, period. It might work if you’re trying to hostilely take over another company, or you don’t care about the relationship. Then it’s a win-lose scenario. Might be to your advantage if that’s in your ethical, moral scope.

But win-win is the goal. You’re trying to find solutions that make everybody happy so that you can grow the relationship, so you can work together better, so you can accomplish amazing things, whatever that relationship is. So really having that in mind that I’m gonna work with somebody to try to find solutions. And then also creative solutions. And what I mean by that is rarely is there ever one and only one solution to a problem, to a conflict, to anything.

So be creative. Think about what types of things will work to make this, to get this into a better place, to get our relationship to a better place. What can I give and you give so that we both feel happy? Or, you know, being able to explore a lot of different solutions and explore them together so that there’s ownership. A resolution isn’t going to be very satisfactory if it’s put upon somebody. It needs to be agreed to and there needs to be coordination or working together on it.

And the last one’s trust and follow through. And trust is kind of, there’s tools for that throughout a process. But what I mean by follow through, and this is really essential, is you can go through the whole process of resolving a conflict positively, and you can get to a resolution that both parties agree on. It’s a win-win. And the conflict’s not over. It’s not over until people do what they said they were going to do.

If you go through that whole process and you agree and you’re all happy and then you just go on with life the way you were before and don’t do what you agreed to, that conflict’s not only not resolved, it’s coming back, it’s going to be bigger, and it’s probably gonna include other things now. So those are kind of the five quick overview of the five quick tools that I emphasize first.

JoDee Curtis (21:39)
Yeah, those are great. Great.

Susan White (21:41)
I really do like those, Bill, really good. So Bill, what recommendations do you have for our listeners who want to work in a culture that manages conflict well? What tips do you have for our listeners?

Bill Taylor (21:53)
Yeah, mean, if you want to be in an environment that handles conflict, well, I’d say first you got to educate yourself. Learn about conflict. What is it? What are the positives? How does it work? And then learn the tools. Five are a great start. There’s more to it than that. But educate yourself about conflict. Like I said before, people are afraid of conflict, I think, primarily because they don’t know that there are ways to deal with it. So that would be number one is educate yourself.

Then educate, if you’re in a leadership position especially, educate those you lead. And then finally I would say bring it to the leadership if you aren’t — or if there’s leadership above you. Help them to understand how vital it is, how it’s going to benefit, what the risks are if you don’t. And try and get them to be educated and to build it into the culture and into the process. Hopefully they embrace it and create education for the whole organization.

Susan White (22:58)
Thank you.

JoDee Curtis (23:00)
And Bill, we always like to ask a JoyPowered® question. What is one thing people are doing in this area of conflict management that just truly sucks the joy out of work?

Bill Taylor (23:16)
Yeah, mean, I think avoiding conflict sucks the joy out of work. I think, you know, avoiding conflict is the number one way that people deal with conflict, I think. In other words, they try not to deal with conflict. But what that means is they internalize it. It doesn’t just go away. I mean, I guess they’re hoping somebody else, at best case scenario, they’re hoping somebody else will deal with it, or the person or the situation will just magically resolve itself, which could happen, but I’d say 95% of the time that’s not going to happen.

And what’s gonna happen instead is they’re gonna dwell on it and then it’s gonna grow and they’re gonna start seeing everything through those glasses of that person or that situation. It’s all gonna start getting more and more negative. They see everything they do, even if it’s intended positively, gets misinterpreted.

Not only that, which means — well, and what that means is the conflict doesn’t only not go away when you avoid it, it tends to grow in intensity and it usually brings more people in. And so you just have a much, much bigger conflict to deal with down the road and you’ve missed all of those positive benefits if you manage it successfully and positively. So yeah, think avoidance is what creates probably most, you know, obviously mismanaging it is horrible, but more people avoid than even mismanage.

Susan White (24:43)
I think that’s fair. So Bill, thank you so much for being here. I’d love for you to share where our listeners could purchase your book and how could people reach you if they wanted to continue this conversation or explore it further with you.

Bill Taylor (24:57)
Sure. The book is called Managing Sports Conflict. I’ve got a copy, it’s backwards maybe, but at least they’ll see the cover. It can be purchased on Amazon or just as great, it can be purchased on our website, is sportsconflictlab.com. So the three words as one, sportsconflictlab.com. And that’s the best place to reach me. I’m more than happy to answer questions or help anybody in any way. There’s a contact form on there and then above it there’s a think a contact button that gets to my email directly. So either way works great.

Susan White (25:37)
Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for coming.

JoDee Curtis (25:39)
Yes, yes, very interesting.

Bill Taylor (25:43)
Thank you guys very much.

JoDee Curtis (25:47)
Now it’s time for a listener question. And we welcome questions from all of our listeners at all times. But Susan, here’s the question. “What are some of the consequences to employee referrals? What situations should you not refer someone? And how can you handle a situation when someone wants you to refer them for a role at your company but you know that they will not be a good employee?”

Susan White (26:20)
Yeah, that’s tough. Let me do the first part of the question first about the consequences of using employee referrals to source new employees. What I really do like about employee referral programs is, first of all, usually the employee who’s doing the referring understands your culture, what skills are really necessary to do the type of work that you need done in your organization. So they’re more likely to refer people who they know will do a good job and that they’re going to want to work with.

We know that Gallup surveys tell us that employees who have a good friend at work are much less likely to be absent, to have workplace accidents, to quit, to become disengaged, all of those things. And so through a referral, you could actually end up with one of your employees bringing a friend that’s going to keep them at that organization longer who’s going to do a good job for you. So there you go. I love that about employee referrals.

But I will tell you there’s things I don’t like about it. People tend to refer people who look like them, who believe in what they believe in, who act like them, because people tend to like people who are like them. And that can really hurt your diversity, your inclusion efforts, your trying to get fresh perspectives to get new thinking. If there is a falling out between two people, maybe they were friends, maybe they’re brother-in-laws and maybe a divorce happens, some other conflict, all of a sudden we got a personal issue that’s finding itself into your workplace. And so it can absolutely kind of degrade your workplace joy.

So I would tell you that there have been times where people sent me referrals. When I was working for a large organization and I was in HR, everybody and their brother had a neighbor or a niece or somebody who wanted to work at that organization. And there were times where I knew the person who was being referred and I knew it was not a good fit. I will tell you that there were times that I did my very best to try to encourage that person not to apply. I couldn’t keep them from applying, but if they did, I didn’t call other people and say, hey, I think this person needs to work with you. I just stayed silent on it.

I know of one instance where that really did affect a relationship that I had with somebody that I was pretty close to. He had worked at the bank for a long time. He retired. He had a relative that had worked for us and had been fired, and he called me and told me she had changed her ways, she’s ready to come back, and really had asked for my help to advocate her. And I was just honest, and I said, there’s lots of other places to work in this city, and I don’t believe that you, had you been the hiring manager, would have given this person a second chance based on why they were terminated. And so anyway, it really it ruined our friendship. So heartbreaking. I still miss him.

But I think sometimes when you’re doing an employee referral, and for the person who called or who called in or, or emailed us that question, they know there’s a reason why they don’t want to refer that person then I think they should trust their gut.

JoDee Curtis (29:14)
Yeah, agree,

Susan White (29:16)
JoDee, it’s time for in the news. A January 5th, 2026 article by Cheryl V. Jackson in the Indianapolis Star jumped out to us. It was entitled “Job Search Lies: Who Is Most Likely to Fib During the Process.” Yikes. We’ve talked about this — but it’s been a number of years ago — that people don’t always tell the truth when they’re looking for a job. Right? As business leaders and HR professionals and people leaders, we tend to count on people being honest on their job application, in their interviews, and in their negotiating a new job offer. Jackson cited a 2025 survey of 2,000 job applicants that was done by resumebuilder.com. Some of the statistics from that survey are…

JoDee Curtis (30:02)
24% of people said they lied on their resume. And that might be by inflating years of experience, exaggerating skills and abilities, or misrepresenting the length of prior jobs.

Susan White (30:21)
6% admitted lying on their cover letters about skills and abilities and/or job responsibilities at prior jobs. I think a lot of people have stopped doing cover letters. A lot of the applicants I talk to today say, “No one’s ever gonna look at those, Susan,” but interestingly, when I talk to HR professionals who do recruiting, they like to see them. Not all of them, but I’d say at least half of them say to me they’d like to see a cover letter. The thing is, when you’re lying in a cover letter, you’re, like, doing it to a person. You know what mean? You’re doing it to the recruiting manager or that hiring manager. So I’m so sorry.

JoDee Curtis (30:55)
Right, it’s addressed to someone, right?

Susan White (30:56)
Right, right.

JoDee Curtis (30:59)
19% admitted to lying during the actual interview. Like, right to their face!

Susan White (31:06)
Oh my gosh. So according to this study by Resume Builder, what are they not telling the truth about? Let’s share that. 41% are not telling the truth about their skills and abilities. 32% about responsibilities at prior jobs. 31% about their years of experience. 9% about a disability. That is so low. 7% about race or ethnicity. And 6%, this is low as well, about veteran status.

JoDee Curtis (31:36)
that one almost hurts the worst.

Susan White (31:40)
I know, saying you’re a veteran when you’re not, yeah, it crushes me.

JoDee Curtis (31:45)
Yeah, yeah, and why did they say they lied about these things? Well 36% said it helped them land the job. 25% said it helped them negotiate a higher starting salary.

Susan White (32:02)
Wow. So, and the study also said who is most likely to lie on resumes. And according to this survey, most were millennials at 29% of millennial respondents. Least was baby boomers at 13% of boomer respondents. And men at 30% of males responding, whereas 20% of females responding. Okay, I don’t like to cast aspersions, but as a female baby boomer, I’m thinking maybe we won this round. We tell the truth!

Okay, once I get over being sad about these survey results, I start to think about what can we do about some people’s propensity to fudge on resumes and interviews and during the job search process. This is where we as people leaders, I think that we need to do a really good job at interviewing people using competency-based behavioral interviewing questions, that we really challenge when answers are given to us that don’t come across as reasonable. We need to really probe to ensure authenticity of experience and of knowledge bases.

I really do think that we should also reference check. I know that’s, when I talk to HR professionals about this, half of them are like, someone’s just gonna give you a reference of somebody they know, their neighbor’s gonna pretend to be the prior employer. You know what? I’m still going to call them. I’m going to listen for you know, the reference, the authenticity of the person that I’m talking to. And definitely background checks. You know, it’s not that hard. There’s wonderful reference checking systems out there to confirm that that person did work at that company during that period of time in such a job title. So I kind of think it’s buyer beware on the hiring front.

JoDee Curtis (33:50)
Right. I agree.

Susan White (33:53)
If you’re SHRM certified, you can get credit for listening to this episode. To get the code, go to getjoypowered.com slash SHRM and fill out a short evaluation. When you finish the evaluation, you’ll get the code and a link to approve a participation certificate. The code will expire on April 6th, 2027. Again, that’s getjoypowered.com slash SHRM to get the code and it’s going to expire on April 6, 2027. Thank you for listening and thank you for your dedication to the HR profession.

JoDee Curtis (34:31)
Thanks for joining us. Please tune in next time and make it a JoyPowered® day.

Susan White (34:37)
Thank you.